Author Topic: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.  (Read 22774 times)

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Offline DCI

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 09:43:50 PM »
The man was carrying the child in the same way as you would when a sleeping child has been picked up from a bed and handed across to you.    That also explains why her head was on the left side of the man seen with her.

Her head would have been on the right arm of the person who picked her up from the bed, but if he handed her to someone positioned in front of him - then her head would end up on that person's left side.   

She could have been handed down to someone standing over the other side of the wall outside the front door.

IMO Gerry McCann was referring to the fact that if Jane had been just a few seconds earlier - she would have bumped into the man.

Spot on Benice  8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
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Offline John

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2013, 01:05:33 AM »
Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that there could be people around that night carrying their child for any amount of reasons.   

The point is that none of them came forward to be eliminated.   

No mother phoning the police to say it was her husband collecting their daughter from a relatives.   No relative phoning to say it was her son who had  picked up her granddaughter who she'd been babysitting.  etc etc     Nothing - Zilch - from a single person.    That should tell you something Stephen.

If you don't believe an abduction happened - then give us your/evidence proof of what DID happen.   That's all you have to do Stephen.   Simples.

We should have a post of the day thread here Benice because your post was excellent.

I didn't get a chance to read the posts earlier but now that I have done so it is plain that many excuses are being put forward as to why neither child carrier came forward.  I could accept that maybe one guy might not come forward for some obscure reason but two guys carrying two almost identical children within a few hundred yards of each other and 40 minutes apart?

I call that quite a coincidence, what you?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:10:11 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Chinagirl

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2013, 07:50:19 AM »
John - I think it would be a good idea to have a Post of the Day thread!

I would nominate both your post above and Benice's for that thread.
 8@??)(
A

stephen25000

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2013, 08:16:14 AM »
From a poster on Amazon on this issue.............................


' wat.... says:

As I posted last night, Jeremy Wilkins in his statement said

''It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep.''

The response to this seems to have been that ''A simple check of the Creche records would show who used it that night and at what time they collected their child. Obviously nothing tallied with the sightings.''

Oh yes?

And where is the evidence for this? There is nothing relating to the register of the evening creche in the files, as far as I can see, presumably because none of the group's children attended it. If anyone else has come across any documents relating to the evening creche, I would appreciate the link.

However - we can determine from the nanny statements that there were three nannies on duty at the creche that evening at the time when Madeleine was found to be missing. I find it difficult to believe that so many staff would be required if the number of people availing themselves of the facility was very small. There is, therefore, no reason to suppose that Jez Wilkins' observation is anything other than accurate.

Had checks been made against the evening creche register to see who had collected their children at times approximate to the sightings, I would have expected some indication of this, together perhaps with depositions from those concerned. Certainly we do know that Jane Tanner was never asked to look at photos of any of those using the creche, or participate in any ID parade procedures, so there is no indication that this was ever done.

Of course, there are two other elements to be considered here. The first is that the weekend represented changeover day - many people were leaving to return home, and it's most unlikely there had been time to conduct such investigations. Secondly, the Portuguese police set very little store by Jane Tanner's ''sighting'', nor did they release details for some weeks, in no small part to the fact that she kept amending her version, and I do not believe they regarded her as a credible witness.

Considering that weeks had gone by before details found their way into the public domain which might have led someone to realise they could have been the person she saw , I don't think it's any surprise that people didn't come forward to say ''It might have been me'', especially if they were back home in their own country by then.

One thing we can say with certainty - a number of families used the creche that night. Yet no-one appears to have been asked to come forward to be eliminated, and no-one seems to have volunteered that information. There could be any number of reasons for this, all perfectly innocent.

One other point.

Jane Tanner and her family remained in PdL for several weeks after Madeleine disappeared. To the best of our knowledge, she never saw this person again. She certainly never reported seeing him again, or thinking she had (her non-sighting of Robert Murat apart). It's perfectly possible that she would have had occasion to see a completely innocent local again, and recognise him as the man she saw, yet she didn't. Whilst that does not rule out that it could have been a local person, in a place as small at PdL I personally think it makes it less likely. '

Offline Chinagirl

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2013, 08:49:22 AM »
If the police didn't check the crèche records for that evening, this would seem an extraordinary oversight.

Was it Jane Tanner who stayed behind?  I thought it was Fiona Payne.
A

Offline Benice

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2013, 08:57:33 AM »
From a poster on Amazon on this issue.............................


' wat.... says:

As I posted last night, Jeremy Wilkins in his statement said

''It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep.''

The response to this seems to have been that ''A simple check of the Creche records would show who used it that night and at what time they collected their child. Obviously nothing tallied with the sightings.''

Oh yes?

And where is the evidence for this? There is nothing relating to the register of the evening creche in the files, as far as I can see, presumably because none of the group's children attended it. If anyone else has come across any documents relating to the evening creche, I would appreciate the link.

However - we can determine from the nanny statements that there were three nannies on duty at the creche that evening at the time when Madeleine was found to be missing. I find it difficult to believe that so many staff would be required if the number of people availing themselves of the facility was very small. There is, therefore, no reason to suppose that Jez Wilkins' observation is anything other than accurate.

Had checks been made against the evening creche register to see who had collected their children at times approximate to the sightings, I would have expected some indication of this, together perhaps with depositions from those concerned. Certainly we do know that Jane Tanner was never asked to look at photos of any of those using the creche, or participate in any ID parade procedures, so there is no indication that this was ever done.

Of course, there are two other elements to be considered here. The first is that the weekend represented changeover day - many people were leaving to return home, and it's most unlikely there had been time to conduct such investigations. Secondly, the Portuguese police set very little store by Jane Tanner's ''sighting'', nor did they release details for some weeks, in no small part to the fact that she kept amending her version, and I do not believe they regarded her as a credible witness.Considering that weeks had gone by before details found their way into the public domain which might have led someone to realise they could have been the person she saw , I don't think it's any surprise that people didn't come forward to say ''It might have been me'', especially if they were back home in their own country by then.

One thing we can say with certainty - a number of families used the creche that night. Yet no-one appears to have been asked to come forward to be eliminated, and no-one seems to have volunteered that information. There could be any number of reasons for this, all perfectly innocent.

One other point.

Jane Tanner and her family remained in PdL for several weeks after Madeleine disappeared. To the best of our knowledge, she never saw this person again. She certainly never reported seeing him again, or thinking she had (her non-sighting of Robert Murat apart). It's perfectly possible that she would have had occasion to see a completely innocent local again, and recognise him as the man she saw, yet she didn't. Whilst that does not rule out that it could have been a local person, in a place as small at PdL I personally think it makes it less likely. '


Amaral set plenty of store on Jayne Tanners sighting until she failed to identify Robert Murat as the abductor. 

After that major disappointment,  and having now decided it was the parents who were guilty, JT's sighting became an inconvenient 'spanner in his works', and so he set out to discredit her as a credible witness.  A blind man on a galloping horse can see that.


(Edited because I think I may have misunderstood the posters comment about the number of nannies on duty - so I have removed my comment)




 


« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:23:55 AM by Benice »
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Benice

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2013, 09:14:47 AM »
We should have a post of the day thread here Benice because your post was excellent.

I didn't get a chance to read the posts earlier but now that I have done so it is plain that many excuses are being put forward as to why neither child carrier came forward.  I could accept that maybe one guy might not come forward for some obscure reason but two guys carrying two almost identical children within a few hundred yards of each other and 40 minutes apart?

I call that quite a coincidence, what you?

Thanks John (and Chinagirl).

Stephen seems to think that unless every aspect of the descriptions given by the Smith family and JT are identical in every detail - then it couldn't have been the same man.    To suggest that even TWO people would have identical recall is nonsense - let alone a far greater number as in this case.     Fortunately the police are well aware of that.

The striking similarities of both the man and child  both seen in such close proximity to the place of abduction and both within the same hour following it -  are simply far too many for it to be two different people  IMO.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2013, 09:31:44 AM »
Thanks John (and Chinagirl).

Stephen seems to think that unless every aspect of the descriptions given by the Smith family and JT are identical in every detail - then it couldn't have been the same man.    To suggest that even TWO people would have identical recall is nonsense - let alone a far greater number as in this case.     Fortunately the police are well aware of that.

The striking similarities of both the man and child  both seen in such close proximity to the place of abduction and both within the same hour following it -  are simply far too many for it to be two different people  IMO.


What are the striking similarities ?

The sightings were in different areas.

Why would someone advertise their presence, when in the words of John they were 'professional abductors' ?

Why not have a car nearby, minimizing the chances of being observed  ?

AnneGuedes

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2013, 09:55:15 AM »

having now decided it was the parents who were guilty, JT's sighting became an inconvenient 'spanner in his works', and so he set out to discredit her as a credible witness.

PJ investigations are under the control of the Ministério Publico. No inspector "decides" someone is guilty or not.
This is the first point on which the AG required a reconstruction. With some reason. Even Mr McCann discredited Mrs Tanner's sighting saying he was on the other side of the street..

AnneGuedes

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2013, 10:02:30 AM »

Why not have a car nearby, minimizing the chances of being observed  ?
Do abductors, even professional, have to possess a car ? In this case it seems they had none.

Offline Carana

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2013, 11:17:24 AM »
Do abductors, even professional, have to possess a car ? In this case it seems they had none.


What makes you think that?

Offline Benice

Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2013, 11:35:32 AM »
PJ investigations are under the control of the Ministério Publico. No inspector "decides" someone is guilty or not.
This is the first point on which the AG required a reconstruction. With some reason. Even Mr McCann discredited Mrs Tanner's sighting saying he was on the other side of the street..

Amaral was the Lead investigator.    To suggest -  in view of so much evidence - much of it from his own lips,  that he did NOT decide that the McCanns were the guilty parties and then go on to try to fit the evidence to suit that theory, is unrealistic.     Initially his superiors would be guided by what he reported to them  - not the other way round.

The McCanns and the rest of the group were not only quite willing, but fully expected to take part in a reconstruction in the days following the abduction.  They had no objections.   The fact that it did not take place at that time was the decision of the PJ.

The recollections of the actual place Gerry and Jez were standing when JT passed them are different. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means they had slightly different memories of the place where it did happen.   As previously mentioned, people are not nailed to the spot when they are standing chatting over a period of several minutes, - they can move.  If that happened it could be that GM remembers the place where they first stopped to chat  - but that JT passed them at the place where they ended up 4/5 mins. later and that is the spot she recalls.     We are only talking a few feet in difference here - not 10 or 20 metres.   

AIMHO
   


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2013, 11:59:27 AM »
Amaral was the Lead investigator.    To suggest -  in view of so much evidence - much of it from his own lips,  that he did NOT decide that the McCanns were the guilty parties and then go on to try to fit the evidence to suit that theory, is unrealistic.     Initially his superiors would be guided by what he reported to them  - not the other way round.

 
The PJ certainly suggests and argues and justifies, but the MP decides, as in the case of the arguido status.

AnneGuedes

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2013, 12:02:39 PM »

The McCanns and the rest of the group were not only quite willing, but fully expected to take part in a reconstruction in the days following the abduction.  They had no objections.   The fact that it did not take place at that time was the decision of the PJ.

How do you know, Benice ? Have you got a link ? We're speaking of course of reconstruction the police way (in order to clarify when crossing statements show discrepancies), and not the Crimewatch way (in order to jog people's memories)

AnneGuedes

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Re: A CHILD BEING CARRIED.
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2013, 12:13:21 PM »

 it just means they had slightly different memories of the place where it did happen.   As previously mentioned, people are not nailed to the spot when they are standing chatting over a period of several minutes, - they can move.  If that happened it could be that GM remembers the place where they first stopped to chat  - but that JT passed them at the place where they ended up 4/5 mins. later and that is the spot she recalls.     We are only talking a few feet in difference here - not 10 or 20 metres.   

 
The difference between one or the other side of the street is very significant, and you know that. If Mr McCann had crossed the street, the fact JW and him missed JT and the abductor wouldn't be unbelievable.
Pretending he crossed the street when he had no reason for that (JW had to cross since he was going back home and he stated he did), Mr McCann was given himself a double alibi (at the cost of JT's credit) : he wasn't the adductor and he had an excuse for missing him.