So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?

[Redblossom]

Yes where's Gerry's, fingerprints and Diane Websters. Weren't they supposed to have touched the blind?
That forensic woman, was a waste of space. it wasn't Sylvia Baptista, was it? Maintenance Manager (key holder), translator, in on all the dog checks, she seemed to be running the show, from start to finish!

I thought the discussion was about the window, not the blinds. There were inadequate prints on the blinds, so there is your evidence for Gerry and Diane messing with them.

As for the window, are you and others suggesting the forensic woman wiped the supposed prints of others on it and left just Kate's? That is positively barmy. Even in such a lunatic scenario how would she know which ones to clean or leave LOL, I despair
 8-)(--)

[sadie]

I thought the discussion was about the window, not the blinds. There were inadequate prints on the blinds, so there is your evidence for Gerry and Diane messing with them.

As for the window, are you and others suggesting the forensic woman wiped the supposed prints of others on it and left just Kate's? That is positively barmy.
 8-)(--)

Come off it, Red

No way would that window only have Kates finger prints on it.  Everyone trooped into that room and searched.  Are you suggesting that no-one looked out of that window?  No-one touched that window?

Thinking cap on lass.

[faithlilly]

I thought the discussion was about the window, not the blinds. There were inadequate prints on the blinds, so there is your evidence for Gerry and Diane messing with them.

As for the window, are you and others suggesting the forensic woman wiped the supposed prints of others on it and left just Kate's? That is positively barmy.
 8-)(--)

Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you 

[Redblossom]

Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you 

I dont doubt it, next it will be silvia batista subliminally cueing the dogs
 8-)(--)

Such ingratitude and veiled or not so veiled aspersions cast on anyone who was  tryng to help and only doing their jobs, straw clutching comes to mind, laters

[sadie]

Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you 

So, do you think that no-body would look out of that window?  When the thought at first was that either she had been abducted thru it, or she had walked out herself thru it.

What do you think

[Mr Moderator]

Stick around Red, it'll get barmier, I promise you 

Just as long as the barmier activity is not contrary to forum rules. 

[Angelo222]

No fibres on the widow at all




.... and only Kates finger prints.  Aw, come on, no way!

Every single person would have tried that window and leaned out looking for what had happened to Madeleine.  There would have been dozens of finger prints..  It is things like this that make me wonder if Amaral was already fitting Kate up?

Certainly there would have been many other prints on the window and the shutter but indecipherable prints ie of no useful value.   There were no fibres found since nobody climbed through the window.

[Redblossom]

Certainly there would have been many other prints on the window and the shutter but indecipherable prints ie of no useful value.   There were no fibres found since nobody climbed through the window.

Angelo, All prints found were recorded and investigated, whether complete, incomplete, smudgd multiples, identified or not. Its not true that only clear full identified prints were recorded and identified or not. Unless  I misread your post.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

[sadie]

Certainly there would have been many other prints on the window and the shutter but indecipherable prints ie of no useful value.   There were no fibres found since nobody climbed through the window.

Angelo

Bundleman was carrying ?Madeleine in a lying down position.  That is tiring, so almost everyone would carry a 3-4 year old in the way that Gerry carried S*** down the steps from the plane.  That is much less tiring.


Had Madeleine been passed thru that relatively narrow window, I think she would have been passed over in that upright position, becos it is so narrow.  i.e the position that Gerry carried S*** down the plane steps.  If she had been passed lying down then it is doubtful that fibres could have been avoided on the window frame.  As there were no fibres, if she went thru there, she almost certainly was upright.



If she had been passed in that upright position, why would bundleman then lay her flat in his arms to carry.  It is very tiring after quite a short time.



Apart from the front door being so dark and hidden, I think that the way that bundleman was carrying Madeleine verifies that she was carried out via that front door.  The fact that her head ended up on the other arm, after the pass-over, also supports this.



I truly think that the front door is indicated in every way



It also troubles me that so much money and effort has been thrown at Pat Brown proving it wasn't the front door, but  the window - yet at the same time showing that the window could not have been used cos it was too overlooked and brilliantly lit.  In other words trying to falsely prove Amarals theory as being correct.



All the fanfare for the "lovely" Pat - * Criminal Profiler * extraordinaire, all the way from the US of A.   
The mega welcome from Tony Bennett and then from Amaral.



All those lovely trees gone, ruthlessly cut down!  A huge search light fitted where there was none before ... and a  professional photographer taking the pictures to * prove it *.  What a farce.



JeeZ,  Quite honestly it stinks

[Angelo222]

Angelo, All prints found were recorded and investigated, whether complete, incomplete, smudgd multiples, identified or not. Its not true that only clear full identified prints were recorded and identified or not. Unless  I misread your post.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

So lets see??   Only one finger print was identified even though dozens of people have opened and closed the window and the shutter.  You forget about the several others which were unusable.

[Angelo222]

Angelo

Bundleman was carrying Madeleine in a lying down position.  That is tiring, so almost everyone would carry a 3-4 year old in the way that Gerry carried S*** down the steps from the plane.  That is much less tiring.

Had Madeleine been passed through that relatively narrow window, I think she would have been passed over in that upright position, because it is so narrow.  i.e the position that Gerry carried S*** down the plane steps.  If she had been passed lying down then it is doubtful that fibres could have been avoided on the window frame.  As there were no fibres, if she went through there, she almost certainly was upright.

If she had been passed in that upright position, why would bundleman then lay her flat in his arms to carry.  It is very tiring after quite a short time.

Tricky one Sadie but Madeleine could have been lifted from her bed in a limp posture and passed sideways out of the window...no mystery there...she didn't have to be in an upright position.    I also think the reason the carrier whom you refer to as bundleman didn't want to put her in an upright position in case he woke her.   

[Redblossom]

So lets see??   Only one finger print was identified even though dozens of people have opened and closed the window and the shutter.  You forget about the several others which were unusable.

- Five prints (Kates) were identified, not one.
- Windows get cleaned regularly so there will be no dozens of different prints at any one stage, and if there were are you also suggesting thry were wiped by the forensics lady?? i hope not LOL. no one said they touched the window that night except for Kate, BUT the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further 
- The shutters will not have prints on them ordinarily as they are opened and closed without touching them at all,from a pulley mechanism from inside the flat
- Re unusable prints, none were on the window of the kids bedroom, three were on the outside of the shutters,but they are accounted for by Gerry and Diane webster testing the shutters, I believe the much used patio door glass had a few though, unusable ones that is, but as I said earlier, all were mentioned in the fingerprints report, useable or not, along with their locations

Edited

[Angelo222]

- Five prints (Kates) were identified, not one.
- Windows get cleaned regularly so there will be no dozens of different prints at any one stage, and if there were are you also suggesting thry were wiped by the forensics lady?? i hope not LOL. no one said they touched the window that night except for Kate, BUT the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further 
- The shutters will not have prints on them ordinarily as they are opened and closed without touching them at all,from a pulley mechanism from inside the flat
- Re unusable prints, none were on the window of the kids bedroom, three were on the outside of the shutters,but they are accounted for by Gerry and Diane webster testing the shutters, I believe the much used patio door glass had a few though, unusable ones that is, but as I said earlier, all were mentioned in the fingerprints report, useable or not, along with their locations

Edited

Yes.  Five prints belonging to one individual.  Windows are cleaned but the frames are rarely cleaned to the extent that finger prints are removed completely.   In any event one doesn't open a window by touching the glass and that is the only part a cleaner will routinely clean.

Red, we aren't looking for the 'ordinarily', we are looking for the unique situation and if an abductor gained access via the shutter his or her prints would be on the outer frame unless he used gloves in which case there wouldn't be any prints to find.   

What is surprising though is that Gerrys prints aren't on the frame since he claims to have played with them in order to establish if they could be raised from the outside.

[AnneGuedes]

the only oddity is that Gerry told the maintenance manager that he had shut the window, because it was cold for the other children sleeping,but none of his prints were found but its very possible he took care and used some material so as not to contaminate evidence any further 

Mr McCann said he shut the window. If you can open, force and shut shutters and windows with words, why would you open, force and shut them in reality ?

[sadie]

Tricky one Sadie but Madeleine could have been lifted from her bed in a limp posture and passed sideways out of the window...no mystery there...she didn't have to be in an upright position.    I also think the reason the carrier whom you refer to as bundleman didn't want to put her in an upright position in case he woke her. 

Are you snarling at me Angelo?

Have I said something that I ought not?  Cos I dont know what it is.