Author Topic: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?  (Read 65738 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2013, 11:10:10 AM »
Which is why a reconstruction would have been vital, to highlight these "muddles" and then hopefully explain and remove them.

This would, i am sure, have reduced / removed the PJ's suspicion of the parent's involvement.

From the theory put forward by the PJ they suspected the group did not want to take part in a reconstruction because the group did not want to highlight or explain these "muddles", the PJ wondered why they would not want to do that which undoubtedly added to the suspicion against the McCann's in the PJ's minds.

Which is why i am still gobsmacked that the group did not want to do it given it would have removed a huge tranche of suspicion against the Mccann's in the PJ's minds.

I agree that a reconstruction may have been useful when memories were fresh and as many people as possible were still there, i.e., in early May 2007.

AnneGuedes

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Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2013, 11:11:38 AM »
The main door was locked in Mr McCann's first statement, and he used the key to enter the flat, as (he said) did Mrs McCann. This statement fits perfectly with Mr McCann's calls to family and friends "all doors locked". No possible lost in translation.

Offline Albertini

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2013, 11:15:23 AM »
I agree that a reconstruction may have been useful when memories were fresh and as many people as possible were still there, i.e., in early May 2007.

I agree, and  it is to the detriment of solving the case that it did not happen, and one has to then ask why it was prevented from taking place.

That being said, can you accept that the PJ, or indeed any police force in the world, would treat a refusal to take part in a reconstruction of the evening's events, involving the last people to see Madeleine alive and well, as suspicious?

Offline Benice

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2013, 11:18:39 AM »

Some people tend to forget the initial general chaos and assume that everything in those early statements was accurate.

Exactly.  I cannnot begin to imagine the state of Gerry's mind at the time of that first interview - just hours after his daughter had disappeared.  He would be traumatised, terrified and mentally exhausted - and getting worse by the minute as time ticked by and no news came.       

How anyone can think he was capable of coolly and calmly giving a perfect and coherent statement in those circumstances is beyond me.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Albertini

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2013, 11:28:09 AM »
Exactly.  I cannnot begin to imagine the state of Gerry's mind at the time of that first interview - just hours after his daughter had disappeared.  He would be traumatised, terrified and mentally exhausted - and getting worse by the minute as time ticked by and no news came.       

How anyone can think he was capable of coolly and calmly giving a perfect and coherent statement in those circumstances is beyond me.

I accept that although i was under the impression it was said that Gerry's reaction was to go in full on organisational mode in rallying the media and the UK government into action which doesn't tally with the traumatised terrified and mentally exhausted picture you paint.

That being said though the crucial thing from an investigative point of view is the belief threshold you are prepared to accept between anguish and suspicion as to such a change in the point of entry into the apartment in that last visit, particularly if there are other statements and/or actions which also arouse suspicion.

And that's the heart of the case at the moment between those who believe in the abduction theory and those who do not.

And i can't see that ever changing or being resolved until fresh evidence comes to light.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:33:05 AM by Albertini »

Offline Carana

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2013, 11:33:25 AM »
Exactly.  I cannnot begin to imagine the state of Gerry's mind at the time of that first interview - just hours after his daughter had disappeared.  He would be traumatised, terrified and mentally exhausted - and getting worse by the minute as time ticked by and no news came.       

How anyone can think he was capable of coolly and calmly giving a perfect and coherent statement in those circumstances is beyond me.

Aside from those directly involved, the "interpreter" was brought in at short notice (how experienced was she?) and the police officer didn't seem to be very awake (or was stressed as well ) if he hadn't questioned why Gerry would have gone the long way around when he mentioned in the same statement that Matt had done a check via the unlocked patio doors.

Any one of the three could have made mistakes.

It wasn't about reporting a stolen passport - there was a little girl who had disappeared.

Offline Chinagirl

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #126 on: July 16, 2013, 12:53:57 PM »
Is it not possible that Gerry did indeed enter the apartment via the front door, using his key, during his first check, and opened the patio door shutter then so that it would be easier to make further checks via the unlocked patio door?

If that is what occured then there is no conflict between his two statements.
A

Offline Carana

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2013, 01:06:34 PM »
Is it not possible that Gerry did indeed enter the apartment via the front door, using his key, during his first check, and opened the patio door shutter then so that it would be easier to make further checks via the unlocked patio door?

If that is what occured then there is no conflict between his two statements.

That would seem feasible... but why didn't the police officer ask?

AnneGuedes

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Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »
Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.

Offline DCI

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Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2013, 02:49:50 PM »
Possibly viable had Rachael's statement not specifically said:

Quote
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Rachel made 3 statements, why is this only mentioned in one?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 02:52:05 PM by DCI »
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Offline Albertini

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2013, 02:58:52 PM »
Rachel made 3 statements, why is this only mentioned in one?

I have no idea, i wasn't there and didn't make this statement, you would have to ask her, wouldn't you?

The point is she speficially said it, she walked past the McCann's apartment after the McCann's had left and were at the Tapas and that is what she said she saw in her statement.


Offline Carana

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2013, 03:38:41 PM »
I accept that although i was under the impression it was said that Gerry's reaction was to go in full on organisational mode in rallying the media and the UK government into action which doesn't tally with the traumatised terrified and mentally exhausted picture you paint.

That being said though the crucial thing from an investigative point of view is the belief threshold you are prepared to accept between anguish and suspicion as to such a change in the point of entry into the apartment in that last visit, particularly if there are other statements and/or actions which also arouse suspicion.

And that's the heart of the case at the moment between those who believe in the abduction theory and those who do not.

And i can't see that ever changing or being resolved until fresh evidence comes to light.


I disagree, particularly concerning the early statements, because I don't feel that people are taking into account the context.

These initial statements were to get the ball rolling. The police were under pressure as well, don't forget.
I doubt that any of them (witness, interpreter or police officer) could have imagined that the hoi poloi would be poring over every imaginable possible "discrepancy" six years later.

None of these statements are verbatim. There is no way of checking what they actually said, as opposed to what appeared in those statements.

Offline Benice

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2013, 03:42:51 PM »
I accept that although i was under the impression it was said that Gerry's reaction was to go in full on organisational mode in rallying the media and the UK government into action which doesn't tally with the traumatised terrified and mentally exhausted picture you paint.


Nothing would be equal to the level of trauma suffered in the first hours after Madeleine's disappearance. 

The McCanns did not contact the media or the UK government.   Other people did that.   It was Mark Warner, not the McCanns who brought in the various people who arrived in PdL to assist in those first days - including the trauma psychologist who was such a great help to them     It was British MPs who phoned the McCanns not the other way round .    It was not until almost a week later that Gerry was able to pull himself up by his bootstraps and determined to make it his mission to do everything in his power to get his daughter back and that is what he has focused on ever since.   
IMO


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline John

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2013, 06:43:21 PM »
I came across the following comment which Gerry's sister, Trish Cameron, made in a BBC interview on 4th May 2007 being the day after the abduction.

"Trish Cameron: They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut. Kate went back at ten o'clock to check; the front door was lying open; the window had been tampered with; the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing."

Note the "...the front door was lying open." comment?

www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 06:45:17 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2013, 06:54:53 PM »
I came across the following comment which Gerry's sister, Trish Cameron, made in a BBC interview on 4th May 2007 being the day after the abduction.

"Trish Cameron: They last checked at half past nine; they were all sound asleep, sleeping; windows shut; shutters shut. Kate went back at ten o'clock to check; the front door was lying open; the window had been tampered with; the shutters had been jammied open... or whatever you call it, and Madeleine was missing."

Note the "...the front door was lying open." comment?

www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html


Muddled understanding of a family in panic?

Could it have been a confusion over which door? Wasn't it the bedroom door that was more open than usual?