What Happened Between 18:00 & 20:00 On the 3rd With The Tapas 7

[Albertini]

See Red, you have no idea what you are talking about, just trying to stir it, as usaul. Albertini said I had posted "who said they did lie" Re Kate McCann, I didn't. It was nothing to do with the reply to Steven. As Albertini hasn't come up with that post, I presume she/he can't answer, but won't admit it.

Apologies if i mis-quoted you and you said

How do you know they did?

I didn't misquote enough to change the answer i gave though. It still applies and the following can be added:

We know they did because Kate told us they did and evidence demonstrates they did.

Now we have that sorted can you reply regarding the lies in 2007?

[sadie]

So.  You're a qualified psychologist who has examined both Kate and Gerry McCann then? Do tell.  Which University did you gain your qualifications and what dates did you examine the McCanns?

How did they do it in the 4.5 hours then?

Not 4.5 hours Rachel


For the Mccanns to have done something to Madeleine lets examine the timeline again.

No there IS NOT a 4.5 hour time gap for the children/ Madeleine to have been unseen by others rather than the Mccanns.  EDIT: The maximum is about 2 hours

We are looking at how long kate and Gerry singularily, or together, were alone with the children?

Was there enough time for them to have done something nasty to Madeleine, including disposing of her body?


Madeleine left the tapas bar after her tea at  just before 5.40pm (Kates May 6th statement)
Madeleine left the tapas bar after her tea at 5.30pm (Gerrys May 10th statement). 
For some reason that night she was tired out (drugged?) and had to be carried to the flat

Kate was bathing the three children and getting them ready for bed when David called at about 6.30- 6.35pm   He saw Madeleine and the twins dressed ready for bed. (Davids Rog statement part 2)

So Madeleine was safe at about 6.35pm

Kate was with the children until Gerry arrived back from tennis, before 8 pm (Davids Rog statement and IIRC also Gerrys statement.  Probably in other Rog staements too, but I haven't checked them all)  Shall we say Gerry arrived back at 7.55pm?[/color]

EDIT:  My apologies.   Gerry arrived back a few minutes after 7pm.  The others arrived back before 8 pm

So here Kate had been alone with the little ones from 6.35 - 7.05pm (about 30 minutes).  But strange, as had anything happened, a wife would almost certainly rush straight out to her hubby and pour it all out.  That did not happen .... So extremely unlikely anything happened at this time

Kate and Gerry, together, were with the children until they left for the tapas restaurant at 8.30/8.35pm
So 7.05pm - 8.30/8.35pm(1hour 30 minutes)
But both Kate and Gerry had to share a bathroom, shower, wash hair, change etc etc and get ready for their evening meal with the Tapas group.  Also spend valuable bedtime time with the children, clear up in the bathroom and after the children.  THen have a quiet glass of wine.   Not much time here was there?

Matt made a listening check at about 9.00pm

Gerry returned from the Tapas restaurant and saw the children between 9.05 and 910pm.  He noticed the bedroom door was wider open than they left it (left at approx 10cms ajar)
Not much could be done in 5 minutes, could it? [/i]

Jane Tanner, at 9.15 ish, saw bundleman and almost certainly Madeleine.  Even noticing the detail at the bottom of her pyjama trousers.
Looks like Madeleine went at this stage

Matt made a visual check at about 9.25 pm, but unfortunately didn't go into the room - so only actually visually checked the twins.  The door was wider open than expected ... so seems the abduction had already taken place
Kate checked at 10.00pm and found Madeleine gone


The longest gap I can find, when no other people were around, is about 2 hours ... NOT 4.5 hours .... nor as some on here proclaimed 5 hours

[Redblossom]

Not 4.5 hours Rachel


For the Mccanns to have done something to Madeleine lets examine the timeline again.

No there IS NOT a 4.5 hour time gap for the children/ Madeleine to have been unseen by others rather than the Mccanns.  The maximum is 1 hour 15 minutes, whilst Gerry was playing Tennis

We are looking at how long kate and Gerry singularily, or together, were alone with the children?

Was there enough time for them to have done something nasty to Madeleine, including disposing of her body?


Madeleine left the tapas bar after her tea at  just before 5.40pm (Kates May 6th statement)
Madeleine left the tapas bar after her tea at 5.30pm (Gerrys May 10th statement). 
For some reason that night she was tired out (drugged?) and had to be carried to the flat

Kate was bathing the three children and getting them ready for bed when David arrived at 6.35/ 6.40.  He saw Madeleine and the twins dressed ready for bed. (Davids Rog statement part 2)

So Madeleine was safe at about 6.40pm

Kate was with the children until Gerry arrived back from tennis, before 8 pm (Davids Rog statement and IIRC also Gerrys statement.  Probably in other Rog staements too, but I haven't checked them all)  Shall we say Gerry arrived back at 7.55pm?

So here Kate had been alone with the little ones from 6.40 - 7.55 pm (an hour and a quarter).  But strange, as had anything happened, a wife would almost certainly rush straight out to her hubby and pour it all out.  That did not happen .... So extremely unlikely anything happened at this time

Kate and Gerry were with the children until they left for the tapas restaurant at 8.30pm
So 7.55 - 8.30pm (35 minutes)
But Gerry had to shower and get ready for his evening meal with the Tapas group.  Not much time here was there?

Matt made a listening check at about 9.00pm

Gerry returned from the Tapas restaurant and saw the children between 9.05 and 910pm
Not much could be done in 5 minutes, could it? [/i]

Jane Tanner, at 9.15 ish, saw bundleman and almost certainly Madeleine.  Even noticing the detail at the bottom of her pyjama trousers.
Looks like Madeleine went at this stage

Matt made a visual check at about 9.25 pm, but unfortunately didn't go into the room - so only actually visually checked the twins.  The door was wider open than expected ... so seems the abduction had already taken place

Kate checked at 10.00pm and found Madeleine gone


The longest gap I can find, when no other people were around, is 1 hour 15 minutes ... NOT 4.5 hours.  Kate was on her own and after putting the little ones to bed and reading to them, was showering and getting ready for dinner.  That was whilst Gerry was playing tennis.  Odd, if something had happened, that Kate didn't rush out and tell Gerry

With both Kate and Gerry present, the longest period is only about 35 minutes, but Gerry got showered and changed in this period.  Not much time there was there?

No independent witnesses saw Madeleine after 5.30 that day. BTW your timings are out and contradict Gerry and Kates statements for starters.

[sadie]

No independent witnesses saw Madeleine after 5.30 that day. BTW your timings are out and contradict Gerry and Kates statements for starters.

I have them all from one statement or another ... and I haven't handpicked the statements.  Have just used the statements as they came.

NOTE:  Have edited below in line with my realisation that I had Gerrys return time wrong.  He returned soon after 7pm, NOT at just before 8pm.

You are wrong Red, cos like it or not, David Payne and Matt Oldfield and Jane Tanner are independent witnesses.

David saw Madeleine alive and well at about 6.30/6.35pm

Kate and Gerry were at the tapas restaurant apart for a short break from 8.30/8.35 to 10 pm.



That leaves a period of 2 hours total when no-one outside the family saw Madeleine  NOT 4 1/2 or 5 hours as you keep asserting.  This deliberate disinformation is appalling

No other opportunities apart from the 2 hour period, all in full daylight with people around in adjoining flats.  And a period when so much had to be fitted in in.  See later posts

==========================

Think about it.  Get your own times with official sources and post it.  Let's have a look at your time line with opportunities.

Let's all look at it then, comparing yours to mine. 

Is that fair?

[Redblossom]

I have them all from one statement or another ... and I haven't handpicked the statements.  Have just used the satements as they came.

You are wrong Red, cos like it or not, David Payne and Matt Oldfield and Jane Tanner are independent witnesses.

David saw Madeleine alive and well at about 6.35/6.40pm

Kate and Gerry were at the tapas restaurant apart for a short break from 8.30 to 10 pm.




That leaves a period of 1 hour 50 minutes total when no-one outside the family saw Madeleine.

During that time, for 35 minutes both Mum and Dad were together with the children.  However,  during that period Gerry showered and changed ready for the tapas restaurant.  Do you think a dirty deed was done then?

Alternatively kate was alone with the children from Davids visit at 6.35 / 6.40pm until Gerry arrived at about 7.55.   That is a period of only 1hour 15minutes, during which period Kate reeda to them and put thgem to bed.  She also showered, made up, did her hair and changed to clear the bathroom, ready for Gerry coming back.  Not much time left, was there?

Additionally had anything happened to Madeleine, she would have screamed Gerry or fetched him immediately.  Gerry has been her rock thru all this.

Nah nothing happened then either.


No other opportunities apart from in this 1 hour 50 minute period which I have just analysed for you, showing the unlikelyhood of such a thing happening as Zilch, tbh.


Think about it.  Get your own times with official sources and post it.  Let's have a look at your time line with opportunities.

Let's all look at it then, comparing yours to mine. 

Is that fair?

- Did I ever say they had done a *dirty deed*? No I didnt, why do you continuously put words into peoples mouths? And no, I dont have to put a timeline on anything whichI think happened, as I have saidbefore, I have no idea!
- Tanner and Oldfield, even if considered independent witnesses, did not *see* Madeleine after 5.30 and neither have either of  them ever said they did
- Pls quote from Paynes rogatory interview where he says Gerry returned to his flat at 8pm
- As I said, your timings are wrong, have you even *read* Gerry and  Kate Mccanns statements? Your posts suggest you have not

[Albertini]

I have them all from one statement or another ... and I haven't handpicked the statements.  Have just used the satements as they came.

You are wrong Red, cos like it or not, David Payne and Matt Oldfield and Jane Tanner are independent witnesses.

David saw Madeleine alive and well at about 6.35/6.40pm

Kate and Gerry were at the tapas restaurant apart for a short break from 8.30 to 10 pm.




That leaves a period of 1 hour 50 minutes total when no-one outside the family saw Madeleine.

During that time, for 35 minutes both Mum and Dad were together with the children.  However,  during that period Gerry showered and changed ready for the tapas restaurant.  Do you think a dirty deed was done then?

Alternatively kate was alone with the children from Davids visit at 6.35 / 6.40pm until Gerry arrived at about 7.55.   That is a period of only 1hour 15minutes, during which period Kate reeda to them and put thgem to bed.  She also showered, made up, did her hair and changed to clear the bathroom, ready for Gerry coming back.  Not much time left, was there?

Additionally had anything happened to Madeleine, she would have screamed Gerry or fetched him immediately.  Gerry has been her rock thru all this.

Nah nothing happened then either.


No other opportunities apart from in this 1 hour 50 minute period which I have just analysed for you, showing the unlikelyhood of such a thing happening as Zilch, tbh.


Think about it.  Get your own times with official sources and post it.  Let's have a look at your time line with opportunities.

Let's all look at it then, comparing yours to mine. 

Is that fair?

You are relying on David Payne's interview about seeing Kate as indepedent proof???

Where he didnt think to mention it in his first interview, then didn't notice she was naked apart from a towel, then didn't know whether he had gone in or stayed at the door of the apartment, then didn't know if it was 30 seconds or 3-5 minutes.

Not highly reliable, when taken in contraxt with other statements where he says he returned to his apartment at 20:00 and his wife and mother in law said he wa sback after 19:00.

[sadie]

You are relying on David Payne's interview about seeing Kate as indepedent proof???

Where he didnt think to mention it in his first interview, then didn't notice she was naked apart from a towel, then didn't know whether he had gone in or stayed at the door of the apartment, then didn't know if it was 30 seconds or 3-5 minutes.

Not highly reliable, when taken in contraxt with other statements where he says he returned to his apartment at 20:00 and his wife and mother in law said he wa sback after 19:00.

Yes, he must have been back about that time.  He had to get ready for his tennis didn't he, after leaving Kate at about 6.40pm?

where did you find out about Kate being only in a towel?  I have recently reread all his statements and I didn't see it.  Maybe he didn't mention it? 

My life is full of interuptions, but I am surprised if I missed that.  Also, I have only seen mention that he went into the apartment, but not far and that he stayed for just a few minutes ... I think about three.

I acknowledge that his statements are a bit woolley, but there is no reason to disbelieve them .... unless you are determined to disbelieve all the tapas statements ... Seems both the PJ and SY are happy enough with them, why aren't you?

[Benice]

You are relying on David Payne's interview about seeing Kate as indepedent proof???

Where he didnt think to mention it in his first interview, then didn't notice she was naked apart from a towel, then didn't know whether he had gone in or stayed at the door of the apartment, then didn't know if it was 30 seconds or 3-5 minutes.

Not highly reliable, when taken in contraxt with other statements where he says he returned to his apartment at 20:00 and his wife and mother in law said he wa sback after 19:00.

LOL - How could she be naked if she was wearing a towel? Especially if it was bath towel.    By the same token you could say the same about David Payne - i.e. that he was naked apart from his clothes.    (sorry but that made me giggle). 

Why would you expect the second interview to be an exact replica of the first one?  We have memories not tape recorders.   There would be no point in ever having second interviews if you  knew they were going to be word for word identical to the first one. 

People have vastly differing powers of recall and different perceptions of time and distances.   There is nothing strange about it.   They had no reason to be clocking how long  they spoke for - except that they both remembered that it was only for a very short time.   

It's incredible the way some people actually expect that the McCanns and their friends should have been able to recall every word they spoke and every move they made and how long it took  - right down to the last second -not only on the 3rd but for the whole week!  And also every word and every move everyone else made too!   People who think that - should try doing it themselves.      It's asking for the impossible. imo.     

   

       

[sadie]

LOL - How could she be naked if she was wearing a towel? Especially if it was bath towel.    By the same token you could say the same about David Payne - i.e. that he was naked apart from his clothes.    (sorry but that made me giggle). 

Why would you expect the second interview to be an exact replica of the first one?  We have memories not tape recorders.   There would be no point in ever having second interviews if you  knew they were going to be word for word identical to the first one. 

People have vastly differing powers of recall and different perceptions of time and distances.   There is nothing strange about it.   They had no reason to be clocking how long  they spoke for - except that they both remembered that it was only for a very short time.   

It's incredible the way some people actually expect that the McCanns and their friends should have been able to recall every word they spoke and every move they made and how long it took  - right down to the last second -not only on the 3rd but for the whole week!  And also every word and every move everyone else made too!   People who think that - should try doing it themselves.      It's asking for the impossible. imo.     

   

     

 

[AnneGuedes]

You are relying on David Payne's interview about seeing Kate as indepedent proof???

Where he didnt think to mention it in his first interview, then didn't notice she was naked apart from a towel, then didn't know whether he had gone in or stayed at the door of the apartment, then didn't know if it was 30 seconds or 3-5 minutes.

Not highly reliable, when taken in contraxt with other statements where he says he returned to his apartment at 20:00 and his wife and mother in law said he wa sback after 19:00.

Mr Payne didn't remember what Mrs McCann had on !
Could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?
-- I can’t, no.

[AnneGuedes]

It's incredible the way some people actually expect that the McCanns and their friends should have been able to recall every word they spoke and every move they made and how long it took     
 

Expect ? Some people have read Dr Freud and the more recent works of neurologists about the "black box".
When you don't remember, you can safely say so.

[sadie]

Mr Payne didn't remember what Mrs McCann had on !
Could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?
-- I can’t, no.

This made me laugh, cos my hubby never notices what I am wearing either.  I could go out with a black shoe and a brown shoe and he would never notice.  He doesn't notice anything like what people are wearing, yet is exceeding clever in so many ways.

As I said, his statements were very woolley.  He strikes me as the scatty professer type.  I like people like that, rather than smart ars^s

[Benice]

This made me laugh, cos my hubby never notices what I am wearing either.  I could go out with a black shoe and a brown shoe and he would never notice.  He doesn't notice anything like what people are wearing, yet is exceeding clever in so many ways.

As I said, his statements were very woolley.  He strikes me as the scatty professer type.  I like people like that, rather than smart ars^s

The Paynes were also notoriously late for everything - so if that was down to him, he probably wasn't too good at calculating time periods either.

[Albertini]

LOL - How could she be naked if she was wearing a towel? Especially if it was bath towel.    By the same token you could say the same about David Payne - i.e. that he was naked apart from his clothes.    (sorry but that made me giggle). 

Why would you expect the second interview to be an exact replica of the first one?  We have memories not tape recorders.   There would be no point in ever having second interviews if you  knew they were going to be word for word identical to the first one. 

People have vastly differing powers of recall and different perceptions of time and distances.   There is nothing strange about it.   They had no reason to be clocking how long  they spoke for - except that they both remembered that it was only for a very short time.   

It's incredible the way some people actually expect that the McCanns and their friends should have been able to recall every word they spoke and every move they made and how long it took  - right down to the last second -not only on the 3rd but for the whole week!  And also every word and every move everyone else made too!   People who think that - should try doing it themselves.      It's asking for the impossible. imo.     

   

     

No there is a huge difference between wearing clothes and wearing simply a towel!

David was specifically asked what she was wearing and he couldn't recall. I would argue it is noticeable and memorable if you meet someone who is wearing a towel.

Because if you can remember how happy the children looked and all the other guff David remembered then when asked specifically what Kate was wearing i find it impossible to believe you can't recall she greeted you in  nothing but a towel. It is unusual and vivid.

You could perhaps argue that if he wasn't asked the question about what she was wearing he may not have mentioned it, but that argument does not hold water when he was very spceficially asked what she was wearing and couldn't recall it.

The question was specifically asked to test his veracity against Kate's version.

Once again he failed that veracity test.

In relation to David's power of recall between interviews we are talking about David being interviewed regarding Madeleine disappearing and we are exepected to believe, and you are indeed excusing, David's inability to recall within a few hours of Madeleine's disppearance and the giving of his statement, the last time he saw her, again when there was only a few hours between seeing her and giving the statement?

Is that really credible?

There are two options to explain this. One is that David simply didn't recall it. Given the power of recall and prompt mobilisation of organisation with timelines etc i find that hard to believe and not credible.

The other is that this supposed visit was actually created after the first statements in order to add a supposed (but not really in the context of the case) independent sighting of Madeleine at this time.

When you consider all the contradictions and anomalies between David's and Kate's account it is not unreasonable to the impartial eye to suspect it is the latter version which holds true here.

[Albertini]

Sadie Said:

Kate was with the children until Gerry arrived back from tennis, before 8 pm (Davids Rog statement and IIRC also Gerrys statement.  Probably in other Rog staements too, but I haven't checked them all)  Shall we say Gerry arrived back at 7.55pm?

No see the first page of this thread for the breakdown of times.

They all began by saying they left for their  apartments shortly after 19:00 then the men only in their rogatory statements chaged it to 20:00.

All say Gerry left before them and Dan the tennis coach said the men's tennnis finished at 19:00.

So we cannot say Gerry was there until 20:00.

It is more likely, given all the evidence to have been 19:00 or just after when Gerry left.