What Happened Between 18:00 & 20:00 On the 3rd With The Tapas 7

[sadie]

Too much work has  gone into this to leave it hidden away over page, so BUMPED



The time table for times that an opportunity arose between different independant witnesses seeing Madeleine, was unfortunately on another thread

EDIT: Please note:  Because of a basic error I have deleted this timeline.  New one posted further down the thread

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i am more than happy to join with everyone on this forum to consider every statement and adjust this time line if it is necessary.  But facts must come from the actual statements not from third parties ... and there must be NO twisting of facts

[Albertini]

Dianne Webster statements 4th May 2007:

Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 15h45 and left at around 18h15 to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 19h00. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.

Fiona Payne Statement 4th May 2007:

On the day before yesterday, they slightly altered their routine - they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20h00.

Jane Tanner Statement 4th MAy 2007:

After finishing playing tennis at about 14h45, the witness went to her apartment (1) where she stayed with her daughter E**e. Her partner had gone sailing with Matthew.

At about 15h45 she went to the beach with Rachael, Dianne, Fiona, L*** and S****** Payne, taking her daughter E**e along.

Meanwhile Russell arrived from the boat trip and went straight to pick up E**a from the Kids Club. They joined the witness at the beach (7) where they stayed until 18h10-18h15.

When she went to the beach she saw Gerald McCann and Kate Healy having a personal tennis lesson. No children were with them.

Around 17h15 she saw Kate Healy pass the beach (7) "jogging", she having waved.

Russell, Matthew and David left the beach a little earlier to go to the tennis court (8), as it was men's tennis evening. When the witness, together with her friends and children returned from the beach at about 18h20, they passed by the tennis courts and saw all the men, including Gerry on court. They stayed there talking to them for about 20/30 minutes. Gerald behaved normally.

She thinks Kate was in the apartment (1) putting the children to bed.

At about 19h00 they all went back to their own apartments with the children. The witness bathed her children, read them a story and put them to bed. E**e who was unwell and having trouble sleeping, stayed with her father, who had arrived in the meantime. The witness went for dinner at the Tapas restaurant at about 20h30.

Matthew oldfield Statement 10th May 2007:

About 18h00 he, Russell and David went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting Gerald was already there, with Kate and her children watching the match; the rest of the women and children joining them [Kate and children] later.
 
At 19h00 he, Russell and David had finished the match, having then gone to their respective apartments in which they found other members of the group.
 
The deponent said he stayed in his apartment until 19h45 at which time, together with his wife, he went to the Tapas restaurant where Gerald and Kate were already and, from what was said afterwards, Jane. Later, about 20h50, Russell arrived.

Jane Tanner statement 10th May 2007

As usual at 17:00, they were at the children's tea with Kate, the time at which they would go to find [pick up] the children. With Kate and Gerry she went to the tennis courts where the adults and children of the group played [seriously] and played [for fun], respectively, with each other. They were at the courts until 19h00. At that time the men of the group (though she was not sure if Gerry was there) stayed a while longer to play tennis, the women went to their respective apartments to get [the children] ready for bed. 20-30 minutes later the men arrived.

Rachael Oldfied statement 11th May 2007

By 18h30, the women and children returned from the beach in the direction of the "Ocean Club" with a view to seeing their husbands play tennis, who had returned from the beach about five minutes before. Prior to going to her apartment she was with the children in the playground area, next to the "Tapas", until about 19h00.
 
Then she went to her apartment where she gave her daughter a bath, Matthew returning at 19h15.

It was the men's later statement (Rogatory) where 20:00 came about.

Also interesting to note is Matthew's assertion that Kate was at the tennis court with the kids and was joined by the other females and children.

Others specifically mention Kate not being there.

[Benice]

No there is a huge difference between wearing clothes and wearing simply a towel!

David was specifically asked what she was wearing and he couldn't recall. I would argue it is noticeable and memorable if you meet someone who is wearing a towel.

Because if you can remember how happy the children looked and all the other guff David remembered then when asked specifically what Kate was wearing i find it impossible to believe you can't recall she greeted you in  nothing but a towel. It is unusual and vivid.

You could perhaps argue that if he wasn't asked the question about what she was wearing he may not have mentioned it, but that argument does not hold water when he was very spceficially asked what she was wearing and couldn't recall it.

The question was specifically asked to test his veracity against Kate's version.

Once again he failed that veracity test.

In relation to David's power of recall between interviews we are talking about David being interviewed regarding Madeleine disappearing and we are exepected to believe, and you are indeed excusing, David's inability to recall within a few hours of Madeleine's disppearance and the giving of his statement, the last time he saw her, again when there was only a few hours between seeing her and giving the statement?

Is that really credible?

There are two options to explain this. One is that David simply didn't recall it. Given the power of recall and prompt mobilisation of organisation with timelines etc i find that hard to believe and not credible.

The other is that this supposed visit was actually created after the first statements in order to add a supposed (but not really in the context of the case) independent sighting of Madeleine at this time.

When you consider all the contradictions and anomalies between David's and Kate's account it is not unreasonable to the impartial eye to suspect it is the latter version which holds true here.

Hi Albertini,    Firstly you are commenting with hindsight.    David Payne did not know at the time that his visit to 5A was of any importance at all - and that in the future it would be regarded as a vital piece of evidence.     He called in to see if Kate was taking the children to the play area and whether she needed any help with them.   She said no and explained why.   It was such an unimportant couple of minutes of the day compared with the momentous events of later  -  that maybe it had slipped his mind at his first interview     Do you really expect them to account for every word they spoke, and ever move they made - leaving out absolutely nothing in their interviews?  By your reasoning I'm surprised you haven't found the fact that DP never mentions going to bathroom that day in his statement to be suspicious.     

If find this whole business of putting every word they said under a microscope without any acknowledgement whatsoever that people's memories are not identical to one another's and some have better powers of recall than others, and that they were ALL emotionally affected by what had happened, to be grossly unfair.   

The use of hindsight is also unfair.      IMO you are almost expecting that DP should have gone to 5A thinking - ''Oh I'd better take careful note of what Kate and the children are wearing, and time exactly how long I stay there, and whether I actually stood at the door or put one foot in the room - because this is all going to be very important later on.''    It's a preposterous expectation.

Thank goodness SY have the experience and expertise to know that witnesses giving differing accounts of the same event purely from memory is perfectly normal.    They haven't found anything to be suspicious about in the professionally translated statements - otherwise they would not have ruled them out as suspects or persons of interest.  IMO

   

[faithlilly]

Hi Albertini,    Firstly you are commenting with hindsight.    David Payne did not know at the time that his visit to 5A was of any importance at all - and that in the future it would be regarded as a vital piece of evidence.     He called in to see if Kate was taking the children to the play area and whether she needed any help with them.   She said no and explained why.   It was such an unimportant couple of minutes of the day compared with the momentous events of later  -  that maybe it had slipped his mind at his first interview     Do you really expect them to account for every word they spoke, and ever move they made - leaving out absolutely nothing in their interviews?  By your reasoning I'm surprised you haven't found the fact that DP never mentions going to bathroom that day in his statement to be suspicious.     

If find this whole business of putting every word they said under a microscope without any acknowledgement whatsoever that people's memories are not identical to one another's and some have better powers of recall than others, and that they were ALL emotionally affected by what had happened, to be grossly unfair.   

The use of hindsight is also unfair.      IMO you are almost expecting that DP should have gone to 5A thinking - ''Oh I'd better take careful note of what Kate and the children are wearing, and time exactly how long I stay there, and whether I actually stood at the door or put one foot in the room - because this is all going to be very important later on.''    It's a preposterous expectation.

Thank goodness SY have the experience and expertise to know that witnesses giving differing accounts of the same event purely from memory is perfectly normal.    They haven't found anything to be suspicious about in the professionally translated statements - otherwise they would not have ruled them out as suspects or persons of interest.  IMO

 

Your assertion may hold some weight Benice if any one of the people involved in the visit had actually mentioned it but they didn't. Now what do you think are the chances of it slipping all their minds at the same time ?

[Benice]

Your assertion may hold some weight Benice if any one of the people involved in the visit had actually mentioned it but they didn't. Now what do you think are the chances of it slipping all their minds at the same time ?

For the same reason Faith.   It was such a tiny, insignificant - and seemingly irrelevant - couple of minutes at the time that there was no reason to put any importance on it  - especially when you consider all the other massive stuff that was filling everyone's thoughts.      I don't say you would forget it forever, but in the greater scheme of things -  I can well understand why that tiny episode would not be in the forefront of anyone's mind.  It was only later that it actually became relevant.

[Albertini]

For the same reason Faith.   It was such a tiny, insignificant - and seemingly irrelevant - couple of minutes at the time that there was no reason to put any importance on it  - especially when you consider all the other massive stuff that was filling everyone's thoughts.      I don't say you would forget it forever, but in the greater scheme of things -  I can well understand why that tiny episode would not be in the forefront of anyone's mind.  It was only later that it actually became relevant.

What, so you are saying we should believe that the day after Madeline had gone missing at 10:00pm it was not relevant that DP should mention seeing the children around 18:30, some 3.5 hours before she disappeared in his very first statement about Madeleine's disappearance?

How can that be deemed unimportant?

Given the organisation of timelines then there was a concerted effort by the group to bring everything together a few hours after the abduction.

It just doesn't strike me as credible that it should be missed out.

[Benice]

What, so you are saying we should believe that the day after Madeline had gone missing at 10:00pm it was not relevant that DP should mention seeing the children around 18:30, some 3.5 hours before she disappeared in his very first statement about Madeleine's disappearance?

How can that be deemed unimportant?

Given the organisation of timelines then there was a concerted effort by the group to bring everything together a few hours after the abduction.

It just doesn't strike me as credible that it should be missed out.

IMO Albertini it only became relevant after Amaral decided the parents were guilty.  Until then - again just my opinion - but the most important relevant timelines started from when they all left their apartments to go to dinner - especially from the McCanns and their friends perspective  because they knew Madeleine was there when they all sat down at the restaurant - and  that she was gone an hour later -and they knew what JT had seen in the meantime.      The fact that DP had popped into 5a earlier in the evening for a couple of minutes was not part of that timeline.   

 

[Albertini]

Sadie,

Also Rogatory interviews:

MATTHEW OLDFIELD ROGATORY

Reply "It was men's social. Erm, so we went back up, erm, back to, well I went back to the apartment, got the tennis gear and back onto the courts or back to the courts area, erm, and the other guys went to get their stuff. Erm, and I think Dave said that he'd been to the apartment, but I don't know that for definite, that's just something I think has come out, I didn't know anything about that. So we went, got our stuff and came back to the courts, which were already in play, because the social had already started. And Gerry was down playing on a court, I think there was only three of them, I think the, erm, the coach, whose name I can't remember, the tennis coach, the blonde haired bloke, erm, was playing to make up the numbers. And so we waited and watched for a little while, so we didn't get on court until, phew, sometime closer to seven, so maybe sort of quarter to or twenty to or ten to seven we went down to the court. And we were hoping that Gerry would actually stay and make up the four, because everybody, there was one court that was full of four and then there was a three over he, but he, erm, sort of went back to, erm, to sort of help with, you know, Kate and the kids and didn't stay to sort of play with us and there was just the three of us and I think the coach stayed and played to make up the four initially, but didn't want to stay, so he didn't stay the whole time. But we played then for, I think the best part of an hour, erm, before going back to the apartment. And that would have made me slightly late for putting G**** to bed, so I was sort of, oh I better go, I better finish now because, you know, Rachael will be doing it all on her own".

DAVID PAYNE ROGATORY

but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he’d, he’d played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner.

FIONA PAYNE ROGATORY

1485    “Right.  So what time did he come back then from his tennis?”
Reply    “I’d say, if we came back about seven, he was about ten minutes after that, so about ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that”.
1485    “And then you went for your run.  So he told you that before you went for your run?”

JANE TANNER ROGATORY

Reply    “Yeah, it’s not fair that they’ve changed the time for us and then they don’t go.  So they went back up at that point and then we followed up probably about quarter of an hour later with all the kids and we went to the play area by the tennis courts and had a, you know, we probably stayed there for about half an hour or so.  At that point, I’m not, I can’t say how long that was, about half an hour”.
4078    “Were Madeleine and the”.
Reply    “No, they weren’t there.  No, they weren’t there.  Yeah, they’d most, but Gerry was there, he was playing, he was playing tennis”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, we stayed there for a bit and then took the children back and got them, you know, bathed and blah blah and got them ready for bed, but that was probably, by that stage that was probably, erm, half seven’ish probably I’d say, by the time we, we went back, if not maybe even a bit later, I’m not sure, but around then, around the seven o’clock mark”.

DIANNE WEBSTER

4078    “You arrived there about quarter to four and left at about quarter past six when you went to the tennis court and you stayed there until about seven.”
Reply    “Oh right, so I did go.”
4078    “Straight after that you went to the apartment with your granddaughters where you son in-law David arrived after ten minutes, and in the apartment you gave the children a bath with the help of your son in-law. You left the apartment about quarter to nine in the company of your son in-law and daughter, and met up with the rest of the group in the Tapas. So yeah it must have been that day…”
Reply    “Yeah sorry I…”
4078    “Can you recall…”
Reply    “You see that has brought back to mind the fact yes we did bath the children together but I just, I’d forgotten that.”

RACHAEL OLDFIELD ROGATORY

1578    “To where”?
Reply    “Er up to, where the tennis courts were, which were next to the Tapas Bar, erm cos that recreation area’s just in front of the tennis courts, so we headed up there and the kids just played on the swings and slides while the boys played tennis”.
1578    “So who was there at that point”?
Reply    “Erm in terms of us coming up from the beach, there was Jane, Ella and Evie, Fiona, Diane , Lilly and Scarlet, Grace and I and then when we got up to the tennis courts, erm Matt, Dave, Russell, Gerry were there, Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were playing tennis and I think there were a couple of other holiday makers”.
1578    “So Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were already playing tennis”?
Reply    “Yes”.
1578    “And you joined them”?
Reply    “Yeah, we went up there to play, we just stopped watching and supervising the children, erm and then I think shortly after we got there, or as we were getting there, Gerry said that he was gonna go back and help Kate get the kids ready for bed and help Kate get the kids into bed, so he went then, erm and Matt, Dave and Russell carried on playing, I think with Dan who was the coach, erm and we, the children played on the slide and stuff for a bit and then we headed back into the apartments to get them ready and left the boys playing tennis”.
1578    “So what, what time would you have arrived at the tennis courts to watch them playing”?
Reply    “I think it would probably have been about seven, maybe about ten past seven”.
1578    “And the only people not present would have been”?
Reply    “Erm Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren’t there, I think they’d, I don’t think they were there anyway and I know that they’d left shortly, shortly, I think it was shortly before we arrived, cos I know they’d been there, I think when the boys had arrived to play tennis and Kate had taken the kids off to get them ready for bed, so I don’t think they were there when we got there, erm no”.
1578    “And then a short time later, Gerry departed”?
Reply    “Yes”.
1578    “To the apartment to give assistance”?

So i have no idea where you get Gerry going back at 20:00 from?

[sadie]

Thankyou for correcting me.  You are quite correct that I was mistaken about Gerrys time back from Tennis.  I have accidentally included him with the others when they returned.

My apologies for the time this has taken.  There are a  number of reasons for this which I am not going into atm.



Amended timeline when Kate and Gerry were alone with the children

I have all the times from one statement or another ... and I have NOT handpicked the statements.  Have just used the statements as they came, where possible using the statements of the people who are involved.


David Payne and Matt Oldfield and Jane Tanner are independent witnesses.


David saw Madeleine alive and well at about 6..30pm
Kate and Gerry were at the tapas restaurant apart for a short break from 8.30/8.35pm to 10 pmso it is only the period between David seeing the children and Kate and Gerry going to the Tapas restaurant that any "dirty deeds" could have possibly taken place. 
 
That is NO more than 2.00/2.05 hours total.,




That leaves a period of approx. 2 hours  total when no-one outside the family saw Madeleine.[/b]


During that time, for about ! hour 30minutes both Mum and Dad were together with the children.   Their time was taken up with doing caring Mummy and Daddy things for their three little ones, and sharing a bathroom getting ready to go out for dinner.

Alternatively considering kate on her own with the children
Davids visit finished at about 6.35pm.  He saw all three children alive and well, and showered in their pyjamas.  That is a period when Kate was alone with them for about half an hour.
 
The rest of the period both Kate and Gerry were together with the children.   During this period Kate and Gerry read to them and put them to bed.  Kate also showered, made up, probably washed, dried and blow dried her hair.  Also changed and made up.    Gerry helped with the children and also showered and changed ready for the tapas restaurant.  No doubt they tidied up after the little ones, and the bathroom. They enjoyed a glass of wine before leaving for the restaurant.    Not much time left, was there?
 
 
Now, I might have mixed Gerry up with one of the others as leaving the tennis at nearly eight, but I certainly did NOT MAINTAIN that they had 5 hours to do their supposed "dirty deed" as [ censored word ]s on here did.
 
 
Let's make it clear that 5 hours is a total and dispicable lie.  Hang your head in shame.
 
The truth is only about 2 hours ... and they were very busy bunnies during that period [/color]



Summary of results

After David witnessed all three children alive and well. the longest periods that Kate or Kate and Gerry together were alone with the three little ones

Kate on her own = 30 minutes.
Gerry was never on his own except for the fleeting visit at about 9.05- 9.10
 
After tennis, Gerry came back and joined Kate so,
Kate and Gerry together = 1 hour 30 minutes,
 
Total period = 2 hours, but both busy all that time. - see above

[Redblossom]

thank you for admitting you made a mistake, we all do it, but please, why the  bold and huge fonts? We will listen without them and wontbe convinced of an argument because of them[/b][/size]

 LOL

Bless
 

[sadie]

thank you for admitting you made a mistake, we all do it, but please, why the  bold and huge fonts? We will listen without them and wontbe convinced of an argument because of them[/b][/size]

 LOL

Bless
 

Your fonts are very vulgar Red

Mine are highlighting, to hopefully help people pick out salient facts.

Sorry you didn't understand that . 

[sadie]

Quote from: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 06:12:34 PM

Where he didnt think to mention it in his first interview, then didn't notice she was naked apart from a towel,

Where did you get this from Albertini?  I have found no mention of it in the statements.  They are awfully long, so can you be precise please

There are an awful lot of myths around.   Is this one, do you think?

[faithlilly]

Quote from: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 06:12:34 PM

Where did you get this from Albertini?  I have found no mention of it in the statements.  They are awfully long, so can you be precise please

There are an awful lot of myths around.   Is this one, do you think?

From the pen of Mrs McCann :

'At around six-forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me, I stepped into the sitting room.'

[sadie]

Thank you faith.

So from this it appears that David went to the apartment later tha I said.  Seems her was there about  6.40 - 6.45pm,  rather than 6.30- 6.35

Knock another 10 minutes off the time that either, or both, the Mccanns were alone with the children?  Now down to 1 hour 50 minutes, ratbher than 2 hours.  Take your pick.

[Redblossom]

Your fonts are very vulgar Red

Mine are highlighting, to hopefully help people pick out salient facts.

Sorry you didn't understand that .

Yes  of course your bold and big letters are kindly and  helpful to other posters  LOL and NOT a growl from you LOL

PS My Fonts being vulgar are only font used to respond to you, in general I NEVER do them, youseem to not be able to function without them, oh well, have fun
Q
have fun