Author Topic: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony  (Read 16955 times)

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Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 04:56:10 PM »
A question for Anne:

In Portugal, good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people - according to Maria Isabel Stilwell.

No Judaeo-Christian tradition in Portugal, then, Anne? Thought the Iberian peninsula had been Christianised since Roman times...

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 05:04:10 PM »
Very much in agreement, C. Edwards.

Question is why the McCanns haven't addressed any of these questions or provided any real evidence for anything now they finally have their day in court. It's baffling.

Is there some aspect of Portuguese law that they are relying on in presenting their case that obviates the need for these considerations? Perhaps one of our Portuguese friends can help us out here?

There is of course the possibility that the evidence is being provided but not recorded.  However having seen some references from the judge asking for evidence it would perhaps appear not.

Another related point - Gerry McCann saying that he and Kate of all people should know how the search has been affected. With respect, I don't see how this follows logically.  So far via their witnesses in court or even prior to that online they appear unable to establish just what "the search" is.  They cannot possibly expect to be able to demonstrate that an undefined "something" has been damaged, they would need to directly specify "the search" and then empirically define just how Amaral's book has damaged it.  Then if they managed that, they'd need to demonstrate just why they see themselves as arbiters of this nebulous search and are therefore entitled to compensation for said damage.

Personally I see them on somewhat sticky ground there.  Their failure to take part (beyond some confused reports about where Gerry may or may not have been) in the easily-defined physical search for Madeleine on the night of her disappearance doesn't exactly put them forward as having any kind of ownership of the earliest definable search and beyond that they've just seemed to sit back and make poor decision after poor decision on how to spend the fund money with a whole raft of undesirables and, frankly, con merchants engaged to carry out "a search".  What were they doing?  Pounding the streets?  Calling people?  If I'd been the McCanns I'd have been insisting on a whole lot of paperwork proving the diligences being carried out on their behalf for lots of money so that I had some kind of record of what had been going on.  If they do have this kind of record, they haven't appeared to put it forward to the court just yet.

Furthermore it's a question of defining "by how much" the search if, indeed, "the search" can be defined has been damaged.  Would they have expected more people to have called in far-fetched sightings?  How do they quantify this?  They'd need to do a MASSIVE survey - world-wide - and try and establish whether people had a) heard of Amaral's book, b) read it and c) stopped searching because of it.

How many of you reading this have searched?  I haven't.  I never had the slightest inclination to, neither did I keep my eye open when out and about for blonde children that could be Madeleine (quite frankly if you're looking for a reluctant and/or sullen child at many family outing venues you'd be kept rather busy).  I would hazard a guess that the huge majority of the world are not and never have been searching (after the initial physical search, of course) for Madeleine other than a few that probably mean well but are the kind that like their 15 minutes of fame in the Daily Mail.  How do the McCanns prove that anyone that read Amaral's book didn't already share his conviction and weren't searching anyway?

The whole thing is a complete debacle. It's a nonsensical lawsuit.  I understand the gist of the case and what they want to try to be seen to be achieving, but the law doesn't work on intentions, it works on solid cases and the McCanns, like Tony Bennet earlier this year, simply don't have one that I can see.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 05:21:14 PM »
There is of course the possibility that the evidence is being provided but not recorded.  However having seen some references from the judge asking for evidence it would perhaps appear not.

Another related point - Gerry McCann saying that he and Kate of all people should know how the search has been affected. With respect, I don't see how this follows logically.  So far via their witnesses in court or even prior to that online they appear unable to establish just what "the search" is.  They cannot possibly expect to be able to demonstrate that an undefined "something" has been damaged, they would need to directly specify "the search" and then empirically define just how Amaral's book has damaged it.  Then if they managed that, they'd need to demonstrate just why they see themselves as arbiters of this nebulous search and are therefore entitled to compensation for said damage.

Personally I see them on somewhat sticky ground there.  Their failure to take part (beyond some confused reports about where Gerry may or may not have been) in the easily-defined physical search for Madeleine on the night of her disappearance doesn't exactly put them forward as having any kind of ownership of the earliest definable search and beyond that they've just seemed to sit back and make poor decision after poor decision on how to spend the fund money with a whole raft of undesirables and, frankly, con merchants engaged to carry out "a search".  What were they doing?  Pounding the streets?  Calling people?  If I'd been the McCanns I'd have been insisting on a whole lot of paperwork proving the diligences being carried out on their behalf for lots of money so that I had some kind of record of what had been going on.  If they do have this kind of record, they haven't appeared to put it forward to the court just yet.

Furthermore it's a question of defining "by how much" the search if, indeed, "the search" can be defined has been damaged.  Would they have expected more people to have called in far-fetched sightings?  How do they quantify this?  They'd need to do a MASSIVE survey - world-wide - and try and establish whether people had a) heard of Amaral's book, b) read it and c) stopped searching because of it.

How many of you reading this have searched?  I haven't.  I never had the slightest inclination to, neither did I keep my eye open when out and about for blonde children that could be Madeleine (quite frankly if you're looking for a reluctant and/or sullen child at many family outing venues you'd be kept rather busy).  I would hazard a guess that the huge majority of the world are not and never have been searching (after the initial physical search, of course) for Madeleine other than a few that probably mean well but are the kind that like their 15 minutes of fame in the Daily Mail.  How do the McCanns prove that anyone that read Amaral's book didn't already share his conviction and weren't searching anyway?

The whole thing is a complete debacle. It's a nonsensical lawsuit.  I understand the gist of the case and what they want to try to be seen to be achieving, but the law doesn't work on intentions, it works on solid cases and the McCanns, like Tony Bennet earlier this year, simply don't have one that I can see.

I made a similar series of points in another thread this morning, C.Edwards, and agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.

Just want to add that despite in general terms the considerable logical and strategic difficulties for the McCanns in producing supporting evidence for their arguments, there would be a certain amount of information useful - necessary perhaps - for their case that would actually have been relatively easily procurable: reports from detectives, for example, on how specifically their searches had been impeded by an alleged Amaral effect. No such reports seem to exist, of course, because neither the various detectives on the case, nor anyone else, failed in their task in finding Madeleine because of anything to do with the thesis of Amaral. If they had done, they would have been sure to point the finger. 

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 06:17:41 PM »
A question for Anne:

In Portugal, good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people - according to Maria Isabel Stilwell.

No Judaeo-Christian tradition in Portugal, then, Anne? Thought the Iberian peninsula had been Christianised since Roman times...

I found Maria Stilwell's  homily rather odd too,  but more because it is a  contradiction to one of the central claims in the McCanns legal case  ...  that Amaral's book has damaged their reputations by claiming they were involved in Madeleine's disappearance 

Yet here is Ms Stilwell saying that the reason people  believe that the McCanns are  culpable is because they  'NEED'   to believe that   ...  they  cling to the belief that 'bad things don't  happen to good people'  in order to feel safe themselves,  she protests,  and therefore  conclude that the McCanns  (  unlike themselves  ) must   be  'bad' 

If she is correct, though,   then people would have held the McCann's responsible  whether Amaral had written his book or not

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 06:40:29 PM »
I found Maria Stilwell's  homily rather odd too,  but more because it is a  contradiction to one of the central claims in the McCanns legal case  ...  that Amaral's book has damaged their reputations by claiming they were involved in Madeleine's disappearance 

Yet here is Ms Stilwell saying that the reason people  believe that the McCanns are  culpable is because they  'NEED'   to believe that   ...  they  cling to the belief that 'bad things don't  happen to good people'  in order to feel safe themselves,  she protests,  and therefore  conclude that the McCanns  (  unlike themselves  ) must   be  'bad' 

If she is correct, though,   then people would have held the McCann's responsible  whether Amaral had written his book or not
 
Most astute, Icabod, and a much more pertinent point than my question to Anne.

It is almost as if the witnesses for the prosecution are defending the other side...

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 06:47:57 PM »
A question for Anne:

In Portugal, good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people - according to Maria Isabel Stilwell.

No Judaeo-Christian tradition in Portugal, then, Anne? Thought the Iberian peninsula had been Christianised since Roman times...
This is one of Isabel Stilwell's tunes, SH ! I never observed this simplistic belief globally affected Portugal and I've been living in Lisbon for many years !
Everywhere on the planet people react to something bad moaning "what did I do (to God or whatever) to deserve this ?". Even educated people react like this spontaneously, it just means they're suddenly aware something is beyond them. this is why they complain.
I think we must try to understand this instead of despising it.
I was ashamed during that hearing. In order to exhibit her superiority, IS denigrated her own people, making a ridiculous caricature. She wasn't helped by Isabel Duarte though, it was as if no preparation work had been done. I felt the judge was exasperated though she controlled it very well. When IS turned towards the audience at the end, she looked lost and I had the same feeling than when Emma Loach left the room : they realised the vacuity of their statements.
There are many many New Christian families (names like Pereira, Carvalho, Ribeiro, Silva, Tavares, Paiva, Corrêa, Guedes..)  and still Jewish communities.

Offline John

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2013, 07:00:57 PM »
From the reading of events I am surprised the judge didn't bounce her ass out the courtroom. She wouldn't have got away with interrupting a lawyer let alone a judge in a British court.

I remember an incident at my own trial when I asked the prosecutor why she was doing the case as a favour for the Inland Revenue.  She erupted in fury and tried to shout me down..the Sheriff threaten to have both of us removed! 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 07:03:55 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2013, 07:02:24 PM »
This is one of Isabel Stilwell's tunes, SH ! I never observed this simplistic belief globally affected Portugal and I've been living in Lisbon for many years !
Everywhere on the planet people react to something bad moaning "what did I do (to God or whatever) to deserve this ?". Even educated people react like this spontaneously, it just means they're suddenly aware something is beyond them. this is why they complain.
I think we must try to understand this instead of despising it.
I was ashamed during that hearing. In order to exhibit her superiority, IS denigrated her own people, making a ridiculous caricature. She wasn't helped by Isabel Duarte though, it was as if no preparation work had been done. I felt the judge was exasperated though she controlled it very well. When IS turned towards the audience at the end, she looked lost and I had the same feeling than when Emma Loach left the room : they realised the vacuity of their statements.
There are many many New Christian families (names like Pereira, Carvalho, Ribeiro, Silva, Tavares, Paiva, Corrêa, Guedes..)  and still Jewish communities.

Thanks for all that invaluable info, Anne - straight from the courtroom itself. So strange the seeming lack of preparation for a case that the McCanns have been preparing for, informally if not formally, for a number of years.

On another point, I have found it interesting that a number of names associated with this case are so-called 'New  Christian' - including Guedes itself, which I wondered about. Being 'Old Christian' myself (if you get my meaning, Anne...) I wondered if this reflects something about the case, or if there simply are so many New Christian families sill aware of their heritage in Portugal and keeping to these names..

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2013, 07:05:19 PM »
From the reading of events I am surprised the judge didn't bounce her ass out the courtroom. She wouldn't have got away with interrupting a lawyer let alone a judge in a British court.

I remember an incident at my own trial when I asked the prosecutor why she was doing the case as a favour for the Inland Revenue.  She erupted in fury and tried to shout me down..the Sheriff threaten to have both of us removed!

If IS wants to ruin things for the McCanns, that's her prerogative...

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2013, 07:06:27 PM »
From the reading of events I am surprised the judge didn't bounce her ass out the courtroom. She wouldn't have got away with interrupting a lawyer let alone a judge in a British court.

I remember an incident at my own trial when I asked the prosecutor why she was doing the case as a favour for the Inland Revenue.  She erupted in fury and tried to shout me down..the Sheriff threaten to have both of us removed!

She did appear to be pushing her luck a bit !

Why was she there anyway  ...  do we know  ?

What direct association does she have with the McCanns  or the case  ? 

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2013, 07:11:38 PM »

Yet here is Ms Stilwell saying that the reason people  believe that the McCanns are  culpable is because they  'NEED'   to believe that   ... 
This is how she justifies her editorials against Mr Amaral, she's convinced to achieve a balance between freedom of speech and right to good name. She doesn't realise or doesn't want to realise that most Portuguese aren't interested in this case and find having no idea easier and more comfortable.
 

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2013, 07:14:25 PM »
This is how she justifies her editorials against Mr Amaral, she's convinced to achieve a balance between freedom of speech and right to good name. She doesn't realise or doesn't want to realise that most Portuguese aren't interested in this case and find having no idea easier and more comfortable.

Why is there little interest in this case in Portugal?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2013, 07:14:59 PM »
If IS wants to ruin things for the McCanns, that's her prerogative...
What ! She was a witness for the accusation, the other Isabel should have controlled her.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2013, 07:16:15 PM »
Why is there little interest in this case in Portugal?
Fatum explains it. Listen to some fados, you'll understand.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Maria Isabel Stilwell's testimony
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 07:19:57 PM »
Fatum explains it. Listen to some fados, you'll understand.

Ok, back to the gramophone