In hindsight the checks on the children were inadequate...are we sympathetic?

[stephen25000]

So tell me exactly with statistics how many people have left their children:

All under 4; in an unlocked residence; with no protection; infrequent checks which are not independently verified; for several nights in a row; whilst out drinking and snacking with some associates ?

I await your reasoned answer backed up with data.

[icabodcrane]

So tell me exactly with statistics how many people have left their children:

All under 4; in an unlocked residence; with no protection; infrequent checks which are not independently verified; for several nights in a row; whilst out drinking and snacking with some associates ?

I await your reasoned answer backed up with data.

You'll have a long wait stephen

We have been bluffed for a long time that the McCanns,   and their equally cavalier chums,  were living in some kind of  'Butlins'  time warp

They were  'lulled'  into a false sense of security you see  ...  by all the red-coats  wandering around Praia de Luz shouting Hi Di Hi  at all the campers

[stephen25000]

You'll have a long wait stephen

We have been bluffed for a long time that the McCanns,   and their equally cavalier chums,  were living in some kind of  'Butlins'  time warp

They were  'lulled'  into a false sense of security you see  ...  by all the red-coats  wandering around Praia de Luz shouting Hi Di Hi  at all the campers

Yes, you're right.

They come out of the closet with all their well worn cliches, and it isn't going to stop.

[Benice]

So tell me exactly with statistics how many people have left their children:

All under 4; in an unlocked residence; with no protection; infrequent checks which are not independently verified; for several nights in a row; whilst out drinking and snacking with some associates ?

I await your reasoned answer backed up with data.

You really are in denial aren't you Stephen.    The service which has been offered for decades and used by probably hundreds of thousands of parents by now  - is called a BABY Listening Service, the clue being in the word 'Baby'.

Parents leave their babies and children fast asleep and go out.  Whilst they are out regular checks are made on them by members of staff listening outside doors.      It is a legal service and and obviously considered to be safe otherwise there would be no demand for it - and it would never have existed.      Nowadays it would seem that baby monitors are also used by parents who leave their chidren asleep whilst they go for their evening meal.

Whether you like it or not - parents on holiday have been doing the same as the McCanns for years - and despite your never ending attempts to put the McCanns forward as 'unique' in this respect -  those are the facts. 

Your further attempt to infer they were out drinking - with a few snacks, is just plain nasty  IMO.    They were having a three course evening meal, which included wine.   Not a single person who observed them during those meals has ever claimed they were inebriated.

Wildly exaggerating the facts to make them suit your own agenda is not 'reasoned' argument.   IMO

[Mr Gray]

You'll have a long wait stephen

We have been bluffed for a long time that the McCanns,   and their equally cavalier chums,  were living in some kind of  'Butlins'  time warp

They were  'lulled'  into a false sense of security you see  ...  by all the red-coats  wandering around Praia de Luz shouting Hi Di Hi  at all the campers

You are completely out of touch....Mark warner was still advertising  baby listening on its website at other resorts AFTER  Maddie was abducted..no time warp you are wrong again. not only that I supplied details of one uk hotel..there must be more...advertising baby listening services at present...no time warp you are wrong again

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't understand how you can feel anything but sympathy to a couple who left their children in an apt on a complex, the same as thousands of british families have done since the days of butlins and suffered a terrible tragedy

I feel enormous sympathy for the McCanns having lost their daughter, and also for the difficulties they have experienced since then, many of which have not been their fault. As a parent, I understand profoundly the idea that losing a child is just about the worst thing that coulc happen to a person.

My comment related to the simple fact that the McCanns themselves feel guilty for leaving their children - very natural feelings that will remain with them regardless of what anyone else says or does. In the words of Kate McCann: ' we've let her down.'

Feeling partially responsible for the disappearance, as Kate's words illustrate, must make their grief even more difficult to bear.

[Rachel Granada]

I feel enormous sympathy for the McCanns having lost their daughter, and also for the difficulties they have experienced since then, many of which have not been their fault. As a parent, I understand profoundly the idea that losing a child is just about the worst thing that coulc happen to a person.

My comment related to the simple fact that the McCanns themselves feel guilty for leaving their children - very natural feelings that will remain with them regardless of what anyone else says or does. In the words of Kate McCann: ' we've let her down.'

Feeling partially responsible for the disappearance, as Kate's words illustrate, must make their grief even more difficult to bear.

That's a kind and thoughtful post, Sherlock.

[Sherlock Holmes]

That's a kind and thoughtful post, Sherlock.

Yes, being critical of the McCanns - as I sometimes am - is nothing to do with not feeling sympathy.

It is important to be sympathetic, and also to try to say or do things that are of practical relevance and help to a person  - the latter being an extension of the former.

Criticising the way the McCanns are handling this trial, for example, as many of us here are doing, is a reflection of the belief that some of the things the McCanns are doing are not working very well for them, and that they would be better off tackling things differently (such as preparing better witnesses), and is not necessarily an 'attack' on the McCanns as individuals.

Ultimately, as I said before on another thread, I think we all feel sympathy for the McCanns at a deep level, whether we like them as individuals or not, or always agree with their approach, because we would never ever like to be in their shoes with regard to our own children.

And of course, we also feel sorry for Madeleine.

[Luz]

You really are in denial aren't you Stephen.    The service which has been offered for decades and used by probably hundreds of thousands of parents by now  - is called a BABY Listening Service, the clue being in the word 'Baby'.

Parents leave their babies and children fast asleep and go out.  Whilst they are out regular checks are made on them by members of staff listening outside doors.      It is a legal service and and obviously considered to be safe otherwise there would be no demand for it - and it would never have existed.      Nowadays it would seem that baby monitors are also used by parents who leave their chidren asleep whilst they go for their evening meal.

Whether you like it or not - parents on holiday have been doing the same as the McCanns for years - and despite your never ending attempts to put the McCanns forward as 'unique' in this respect -  those are the facts. 

Your further attempt to infer they were out drinking - with a few snacks, is just plain nasty  IMO.    They were having a three course evening meal, which included wine.   Not a single person who observed them during those meals has ever claimed they were inebriated.

Wildly exaggerating the facts to make them suit your own agenda is not 'reasoned' argument.   IMO

That never existed in Portugal and still doesn't exist - I repeat:LISTENING SERVICES ARE FORBIDDEN IN PORTUGAL. They had the possibility to hire the same baby-sitters that took care of their children during the day.

Even though that would constitute a severe crime in Portugal and in the UK, that is not the crux of the matter, in my opinion. The problem is that they didn't take care of their children as they should, one is missing, probably dead, and they have done everything to avoid the truth to be learned about how that child disappeared.


Being sympathetic with their loss is only human, but it is also human to be angry at them for impeding the truth to be found and for harming every person that do not believe them.


...and Benice, nobody invented the 14 bottles of wine orders that are in the files. Or do you believe that it was water and the employees made it up that it was wine?!

[carlymichelle]

That never existed in Portugal and still doesn't exist - I repeat:LISTENING SERVICES ARE FORBIDDEN IN PORTUGAL. They had the possibility to hire the same baby-sitters that took care of their children during the day.

Even though that would constitute a severe crime in Portugal and in the UK, that is not the crux of the matter, in my opinion. The problem is that they didn't take care of their children as they should, one is missing, probably dead, and they have done everything to avoid the truth to be learned about how that child disappeared.

exactly luz  why didnt they  sit down with their friends in the apartment  and havea  drink   thats what most parents do  and the kids play together

[Cariad]

That never existed in Portugal and still doesn't exist - I repeat:LISTENING SERVICES ARE FORBIDDEN IN PORTUGAL. They had the possibility to hire the same baby-sitters that took care of their children during the day.

Even though that would constitute a severe crime in Portugal and in the UK, that is not the crux of the matter, in my opinion. The problem is that they didn't take care of their children as they should, one is missing, probably dead, and they have done everything to avoid the truth to be learned about how that child disappeared.


Being sympathetic with their loss is only human, but it is also human to be angry at them for impeding the truth to be found and for harming every person that do not believe them.


...and Benice, nobody invented the 14 bottles of wine orders that are in the files. Or do you believe that it was water and the employees made it up that it was wine?!

I've tried to look at it like this: If something had happened to one of my children that I feared would result in my other child being removed from my care, what would I do?

Now, lets ignore my culpability (assuming that I wasn't directly responsible) in the first child's demise, I can't do anything for that child any more, however I can still protect this surviving child.

I can imagine committing pretty much any crime you care to name if I truly believed it was in the best interests of the rest of my family.

Should there have been an accident that was covered up, I can understand why, so I don't feel any particular anger about that.

I find it harder to sympathise with some of their actions over the following years, whether they are guilty of any crime or innocent victims of circumstance.

[Mr Gray]

That never existed in Portugal and still doesn't exist - I repeat:LISTENING SERVICES ARE FORBIDDEN IN PORTUGAL. They had the possibility to hire the same baby-sitters that took care of their children during the day.

Even though that would constitute a severe crime in Portugal and in the UK, that is not the crux of the matter, in my opinion. The problem is that they didn't take care of their children as they should, one is missing, probably dead, and they have done everything to avoid the truth to be learned about how that child disappeared.


Being sympathetic with their loss is only human, but it is also human to be angry at them for impeding the truth to be found and for harming every person that do not believe them.


...and Benice, nobody invented the 14 bottles of wine orders that are in the files. Or do you believe that it was water and the employees made it up that it was wine?!

luz...stop telling lies..in the archiving report they talk of regular checks indicating the McCanns were not negligent

[Rachel Granada]

I've tried to look at it like this: If something had happened to one of my children that I feared would result in my other child being removed from my care, what would I do?

Now, lets ignore my culpability (assuming that I wasn't directly responsible) in the first child's demise, I can't do anything for that child any more, however I can still protect this surviving child.

I can imagine committing pretty much any crime you care to name if I truly believed it was in the best interests of the rest of my family.

Should there have been an accident that was covered up, I can understand why, so I don't feel any particular anger about that.

I find it harder to sympathise with some of their actions over the following years, whether they are guilty of any crime or innocent victims of circumstance.

What actions do you mean, Cariad?

[AnneGuedes]

I've tried to look at it like this: If something had happened to one of my children that I feared would result in my other child being removed from my care, what would I do?

Now, lets ignore my culpability (assuming that I wasn't directly responsible) in the first child's demise, I can't do anything for that child any more, however I can still protect this surviving child.

I can imagine committing pretty much any crime you care to name if I truly believed it was in the best interests of the rest of my family.

Should there have been an accident that was covered up, I can understand why, so I don't feel any particular anger about that.

I find it harder to sympathise with some of their actions over the following years, whether they are guilty of any crime or innocent victims of circumstance.

I couldn't agree more.

[stephen25000]

luz...stop telling lies..in the archiving report they talk of regular checks indicating the McCanns were not negligent

Those checks are not verified independently and you know that.

If they hadn't been  negligent, Madeleine would be still with them.