In hindsight the checks on the children were inadequate...are we sympathetic?

[AnneGuedes]

luz...stop telling lies..in the archiving report they talk of regular checks indicating the McCanns were not negligent

This (Pamela Fenn's statement) shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.

If said guard duty had been observed, in the possibility of this being an abduction, as was insistently mentioned and continues to be mentioned and is admissible to have happened, its occurrence might eventually have been rendered inviable.

[Cariad]

What actions do you mean, Cariad?

Leaving the twins to go to Rome. Hiring a PR consultant and lawyering up at the first opportunity. Telling people that the shutters were broken when they weren't. Not answering questions, not agreeing to a reconstruction. Not investigating the forensic evidence.

I'm very aware that people don't always act as they believe they would in a stressful situation though, so I honestly can not predict what my own actions would be in those circumstances. I can't imagine leaving my remaining children though. It just seems counter intuitive to me.

[ferryman]

Those checks are not verified independently and you know that.

If they hadn't been  negligent, Madeleine would be still with them.

Checking most certainly is verified independently, by waiters who served them all week and report frequently returning meals to the kitchen to be re-heated because guests left the table to go back to the apartments to check on the children; by Jez Wilkins in his report of his discussion with Gerry when they met outside the apartment on May 3rd; by Stephen Carpenter, who was in the restaurant on May 3rd and speaks of people frequently absenting themselves from the table throughout the evening ...

[Benice]

That never existed in Portugal and still doesn't exist - I repeat:LISTENING SERVICES ARE FORBIDDEN IN PORTUGAL. They had the possibility to hire the same baby-sitters that took care of their children during the day.

Even though that would constitute a severe crime in Portugal and in the UK, that is not the crux of the matter, in my opinion. The problem is that they didn't take care of their children as they should, one is missing, probably dead, and they have done everything to avoid the truth to be learned about how that child disappeared.


Being sympathetic with their loss is only human, but it is also human to be angry at them for impeding the truth to be found and for harming every person that do not believe them.


...and Benice, nobody invented the 14 bottles of wine orders that are in the files. Or do you believe that it was water and the employees made it up that it was wine?!

As it was only a couple of days ago you were categoricaly claiming that NO personal details were released in the PJ files, a claim which proved to be completely untrue  -  can you provide proof of the illegality of Baby Listening Services in Portugal.   IIRC the McCanns were not found to be neglectful - as their regular checking ruled out the criterion of 'abandonment', which was required to prove neglect.

Personally I would have to know a potential babysitter for a lot longer than a couple of minutes before I allowed them to spend time alone with my children in my apartment - no matter what their day job was.

As for the 14 bottles of wine, it seems increasingly obvious to me that you have believed every myth ever created in this case.   If that was true then there must be a witness statement from at least one of the restaurant staff who served them, to prove it, but I do not recall having seen one.

On the 3rd May the McCanns and their friends did not sit down until 9.00 oclock - and at approx 10.00 oclock they left -  which leaves about an hour during which they were eating a 3 course meal and leaving the table at intervals to check on their children.  If you really believe they also managed to consume 14 bottles of wine in that short time, then I would be very surprised. 

[Luz]

luz...stop telling lies..in the archiving report they talk of regular checks indicating the McCanns were not negligent

There were no listening services. Calling me names doesn't make it true.
The archiving Report says that there were indications that they were negligent.

[stephen25000]

Checking most certainly is verified independently, by waiters who served them all week and report frequently returning meals to the kitchen to be re-heated because guests left the table to go back to the apartments to check on the children; by Jez Wilkins in his report of his discussion with Gerry when they met outside the apartment on May 3rd; by Stephen Carpenter, who was in the restaurant on May 3rd and speaks of people frequently absenting themselves from the table throughout the evening ...

How many of these people saw any member of the party entering or leaving the apartment on all those nights they went to the tapas bar ?

P.S. Can you spell chemistry ?

[icabodcrane]

I've tried to look at it like this: If something had happened to one of my children that I feared would result in my other child being removed from my care, what would I do?

Now, lets ignore my culpability (assuming that I wasn't directly responsible) in the first child's demise, I can't do anything for that child any more, however I can still protect this surviving child.

I can imagine committing pretty much any crime you care to name if I truly believed it was in the best interests of the rest of my family.

Should there have been an accident that was covered up, I can understand why, so I don't feel any particular anger about that.

I find it harder to sympathise with some of their actions over the following years, whether they are guilty of any crime or innocent victims of circumstance.

I do enjoy reading your posts cariad,  and this one is very honest and heartfelt

I agree with you absolutely,  and have always felt that if Amaral is correct and a tragic accident occured in the apartment  (  while the McCanns were absent  )  then I can see how,  perhaps in a panic and  not thinking straight  because they were distraught,  they  might  have tried to protect their other children by covering up the accident 

Even in those circumstances,  I would still have compassion for the McCanns'  ...  what a desperately sad situation that would have been

[ferryman]

How many of these people saw any member of the party entering or leaving the apartment on all those nights they went to the tapas bar ?

You think that after leaving the table, they might have been sloping off to the toilets to snort cocaine?

[LagosBen]

As it was only a couple of days ago you were categoricaly claiming that NO personal details were released in the PJ files, a claim which proved to be completely untrue  -  can you provide proof of the illegality of Baby Listening Services in Portugal.   IIRC the McCanns were not found to be neglectful - as their regular checking ruled out the criterion of 'abandonment', which was required to prove neglect.

Personally I would have to know a potential babysitter for a lot longer than a couple of minutes before I allowed them to spend time alone with my children in my apartment - no matter what their day job was.

As for the 14 bottles of wine, it seems increasingly obvious to me that you have believed every myth ever created in this case.   If that was true then there must be a witness statement from at least one of the restaurant staff who served them, to prove it, but I do not recall having seen one.

On the 3rd May the McCanns and their friends did not sit down until 9.00 oclock - and at approx 10.00 oclock they left -  which leaves about an hour during which they were eating a 3 course meal and leaving the table at intervals to check on their children.  If you really believe they also managed to consume 14 bottles of wine in that short time, then I would be very surprised.

Don't wait for Luz to accept she is wrong and apologise.

[Mr Gray]

How many of these people saw any member of the party entering or leaving the apartment on all those nights they went to the tapas bar ?

P.S. Can you spell chemistry ?

Stephen..I think you should be a detective...a Portuguese detective...you would fit in well

[stephen25000]

How many of these people saw any member of the party entering or leaving the apartment on all those nights they went to the tapas bar ?

You think that after leaving the table, they might have been sloping off to the toilets to snort cocaine?

More likely to visit the good old wc.

[Lyall]

How many of these people saw any member of the party entering or leaving the apartment on all those nights they went to the tapas bar ?

You think that after leaving the table, they might have been sloping off to the toilets to snort cocaine?

Which doors did they use or did they listen at windows?

The questions can't be answered can they because there are no independent witnesses - on any of the nights.

[Carana]

...and Benice, nobody invented the 14 bottles of wine orders that are in the files. Or do you believe that it was water and the employees made it up that it was wine?!

Luz, Luz... There is a thread on the 14 bottles of wine issue.

Do you still really believe that those scribbles on the bottom of a page identifying all the guests in the restaurant that night referred to the T9 consumption? If so, it would mean that they also drank 8 x 1.5 litres of water within the space of just over an hour.

[Luz]

So tell me exactly with statistics how many people have left their children:

All under 4; in an unlocked residence; with no protection; infrequent checks which are not independently verified; for several nights in a row; whilst out drinking and snacking with some associates ?

I await your reasoned answer backed up with data.

I know I'm going to be persecuted by what I'm about to write, but I'm used to it.

First of all, from the limited experience that I have with British couples with young children, both in Britain and in Portugal, I've never witnessed any of them leaving 3 year old, or even until they were in their middle or late teens.
Second, even though it seems all of the 9 persons assumed to leaving their children alone, I have trouble believing it.
Third, and it's here that I will be flogged, because it's speculation, I think that whatever happened had little to do with the reported neglect, and that was used to justify the absence of the child.
If there was a fatal accident, and there was the need to occult the body, then there was some very serious crime committed that could be revealed by the poor child's corpse. As I said this is pure speculation on my part - I have no clue whatsoever.

[CPN]

The title is: "In hindsight the checks on the children were inadequate...are we sympathetic?"

I'm not sure hindsight comes into it.  I would expect any parent to have more insight into the needs of their children and to care enough to put their children's needs before their own.  Add in that these were doctors who must, surely, have learnt on their training and experience what can happen to young children left alone (see the thread on accidents) to know that three such young children should not be left out of sight and hearing