Author Topic: The dogs.....  (Read 80338 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #465 on: July 29, 2014, 01:38:23 AM »
He said that no incriminating inference could be made from the alerts without forensic corroboration.

No particular argument with that ...

Yes that's procedure. He could be asked to offer further insights in a court about his own personal opinion about each of the dog alerts in this case. Was Eddie chasing cadaver scent in the underground car park etc.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #466 on: July 29, 2014, 01:41:34 AM »
The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

I think a court may listen to Martin Grime and his professional opinion about the dog alerts in this case.

Mr Grime won't be called to testify in a Portuguese court; and that is not a pejorative statement it is a statement of fact.  It is a matter of record that there is no evidence associated with the dog alerts. Mr Grime himself has made that abundantly clear.  So he will never be called.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #467 on: July 29, 2014, 01:45:33 AM »
Mr Grime won't be called to testify in a Portuguese court; and that is not a pejorative statement it is a statement of fact.  It is a matter of record that there is no evidence associated with the dog alerts. Mr Grime himself has made that abundantly clear.  So he will never be called.

Cadaver contaminated clothes which includes a kid's t-shirt >@@(*&)
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #468 on: July 29, 2014, 01:49:22 AM »
Yes that's procedure. He could be asked to offer further insights in a court about his own personal opinion about each of the dog alerts in this case. Was Eddie chasing cadaver scent in the underground car park etc.

Don't you get it?

Mr Grime's personal opinion ... is just that ... opinion, about which neither you nor I have the slightest idea ... but that is irrelevant anyway.

It is not evidence and that is all any court is interested in.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #469 on: July 29, 2014, 01:50:44 AM »
Don't you get it?

Mr Grime's personal opinion ... is just that ... opinion, about which neither you nor I have the slightest idea ... but that is irrelevant anyway.

It is not evidence and that is all any court is interested in.

Keep on thinking that if it makes you feel better. The dogs are back there.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #470 on: July 29, 2014, 01:51:20 AM »
Cadaver contaminated clothes which includes a kid's t-shirt >@@(*&)

 ... are you winding up? ... because you just cannot be serious with that one.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #471 on: July 29, 2014, 02:17:13 AM »
... are you winding up? ... because you just cannot be serious with that one.
BTW wouldn't that tshirt be in the pile of laundry in the cupboard that night?
It wouldn't be being worn by anyone that late as it is not a pyjama.
How on earth could it ever come into contact with anything while it's laying in a pile of laundry in a cupboard?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 02:20:32 AM by pegasus »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #472 on: July 29, 2014, 06:52:00 AM »
1. "the dogs were given this scent from the towel and near apartment 5A"
That was about 10.30pm 4th May.
Source: Fernandes' statement pages 785-788

2. During Fernandes tracking about 10.30pm 4th, it was obvious to Fernandes and anyone's auntie that 5A was where the child had apparantly disappered from, no-one could have failed to notice the GNR guard, the ribboning off with crime scene tape, it was impossible to not know that 5A was the place.

3. During the search you originally referred to, which was on 7th or 8th May, Fernandes already had all that previous knowledge, plus 5A was still ribboned off and guarded, so it was impossible for Fernandes to be unaware that 5A was the presumed crime scene.

In this context, the passage you quoted about the handler (on 7th or 8th) not knowing which apartments were relevant, IMO clearly refers to not knowing the other T9 apartments (which were 4B 5D 5H 4G and 4I) but cannot possibly refer to not knowing 5A, because it was so obvious that was the presumed crime scene.

So the only verbatim quote, then, is mine, which states quite explicitly that the handlers were not told which apartment was the McCanns so as to avoid the handlers becoming conditioned.  Glad we've got that one sorted ...

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #473 on: July 29, 2014, 08:48:16 AM »
Kate's book (page 85)

According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4th May.  At some point in the first 24 hours (I could not say when, exactly, but probably the morning) I recall one of the GNR patrol officers asking us for some of Madeline's clothing or belongings to enable these dogs to identify her scent.  I fetched the pink princess blanket she took to bed with her every night, which they took, and some of her clothes, which they didn't.

So the blanket was taken well in advance of commencement of the canine searches ...
 

Offline faithlilly

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #474 on: July 29, 2014, 11:40:39 AM »
There are many sources for what I have said and logic should dictate that any part excreted from a human body will be subject to decay and therefore picked up by a dog trained to pick up decay.
For example, as Martin Grime emphasises the CSI will react only to blood and nothing else.
The EVRD will react to everything.

I'm sure you do not really require a cite ... I think you are just being a bore ... because it has all been said oh so many times before ... but, just for you :-

Martin Grime
CARTAS ROGATORIAS 3 Pages 21 to 25

Q; The EVRD dog also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver?

A: The EVRD dog is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

Q:Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids?

A: The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin but the EVRD will.


I must have missed it Brietta. Where does Grime say the EVRD dog alerts to urine, saliva etc because it certainly doesn't say that on the the rogatory statement you posted. If the dog did he would be alerting all over the place.

I'm also going to have to press you again for a cite for your first claim about the fingernails etc.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #475 on: July 29, 2014, 01:18:26 PM »
Yes we know ... absolutely no need to shout.  The CSI dog only alerts to blood; the point was that the EVRD alerts to all sorts of human tissue and not necessarily from a dead person as in the instance of dried blood from a shaving cut.

You should stop spreading misinformation and lies. Eddie doesn't alert to those things unless mixed with blood. Read on and learn.

Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
 A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


Between them the dogs alerted to two things and two things only. Eddie was trained to alert to blood and cadaver scent and Keela to blood. They would never alert to to urine, semen and faeces etc unless they were mixed with blood. FACT!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 01:20:53 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #476 on: July 29, 2014, 01:50:05 PM »
You should stop spreading misinformation and lies. Eddie doesn't alert to those things unless mixed with blood. Read on and learn.

Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
 A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


Between them the dogs alerted to two things and two things only. Eddie was trained to alert to blood and cadaver scent and Keela to blood. They would never alert to to urine, semen and faeces etc unless they were mixed with blood. FACT!

Goodness gracious me ... what a mine of disinformation and ignorance you reveal ...

Eddie was trained using aborted pig foetuses; therefore he would have alerted to pork and he did alert to semen in Jersey.

I think you should bear in mind that in Europe it is illegal to replicate the american body farm so dogs trained in Europe are not trained using cadavers.

You may be capable of reading, but you are not capable of interpreting what you read; Mr Grime enumerated biological waste to which the CSI dog would not react to as a trained response, but since these items emit the compounds of decomposition - that is exactly within the parameters of the VRD trained response.

I thought you would comprehend that which is why I used Martin Grime as a particular source as he is an acknowledged expert in the field.  Apparently not ... so try this one for size ...

 - snipped -

Take, for example, a dog trained to detect human remains (oft referred to as
a “cadaver dog,” an imprecise term). It can be trained to detect either putrescine or
cadaverine, two aptly monikered molecules which are specific to decaying carbon
based life forms. But while a deceased and thus decaying human gives off such
molecules, so too does decaying vegetation. On the other hand, handlers have been
known to train human remains dogs with human remains. In that case, however,
one cannot tell whether the dog has reacted to a specific molecule or to a
combination of molecules. That is of import, because parts of the body decay at
different rates; and the cocktail of molecules released by the cadaver may differ from
one day to another. So too, the body may decompose a different rates depending
on the environmental conditions. A dog trained on one combination of molecules
may not react to a different combination even though a body is present in the
vicinity. Moreover, the dog may react to hair, nails, flesh and/or blood, or their
remnants, which are shed by the living as well as by the dead.
There is an inverse
relationship between the number of substances which a dog has been trained to
identify with particularity, and the specificity of the dog’s alert. 

http://hbslawfirm.com/articles_display.php?id=67
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #477 on: July 29, 2014, 01:53:10 PM »
Eddie didn't alert to pork in PDL and pork was found in the bins 8-)(--) I've provided the facts and you still ignore. I think everyone on this board know that your posts can't be trusted. Incase you missed it:

Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 04:50:29 AM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #478 on: July 29, 2014, 02:05:51 PM »
Eddie didn't alert to pork in PDL and pork was found in the bins 8-)(--) I've provided the facts and you still ignore. I think everyone on this board know that your posts can't be trusted. Incase you missed it:

Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

Mr Grime made is very clear that Eddie didn't alert to foodstuffs, pork included. Rotting uncooked pig meat is another matter since he was trained using it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 04:52:47 AM by John »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs.....
« Reply #479 on: July 29, 2014, 02:11:18 PM »
I'm interested in finding out the truth not spreading misinformation. Eddie was the best of the best not an amateur alerting to the lies you've been spreading. Everyone with an open mind who reads this thread knows who is telling the truth and who is lying.

[Eddie was trained using aborted pig foetuses; therefore he would have alerted to pork and he did alert to semen in Jersey. - Brietta]

Why didn't Eddie alert to pork in the bin in PDL as you've lied yet again and said he would have?

Eddie and Keela alerted to blood not semen in Jersey.

'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 04:54:06 AM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.