Were the half hour visual checks a convenient invention after the fact?

[Alfie]

Actually, depending on how it is worded it is not libellous to express doubt over a statement as long as you cite justifiable reasons for your doubt.

Can you give us an example?

[Alfie]

Well they would say that wouldn't they when the Portuguese were baying for blood.  Unfortunately for them Mrs Fenn experienced a somewhat different reality on the Tuesday night.  But then that was a mere one off, a blip in an otherwise well oiled procedure.

Did Mrs Fenn state that the McCanns did not check on their children every 30 minutes?

[Alfie]

Clearly the half hour checks didn't always materialise.

If what you say is correct then clearly the visual checks were a convenient invention after the fact - is that a permitted statement to make on this forum?  That the McCanns and their friends invented their checks?  Please clarify.

[Brietta]

Cite?

I haven't checked the other rogs ... but Fiona Payne's seems to cover most of the bases in relation to the checking of the children.
Her statement is very concise as to the reasoning behind the suitability of the tapas restaurant as opposed to the difficulties associated with dining at the Millenium restaurant as far as the children were concerned.
It can be seen that they considered the proximity to be a bonus and felt safe to leave their children ... unfortunately no-one factored in the possibility of a stranger entering and stealing one.

She also reiterates the feeling of security given by the shutters in her apartment and the assumption that the windows were locked.

The statement I referred to in my post made it plain the the McCanns were clock watchers when it came to carrying out checks; Fiona confirms not only that but that the other couples were also punctillious when it came to carrying out their checks.



However, she states that Gerald and Kate went with regularity, as did the other couples to ensure that their children were well. On one of these occasions, upon returning, Kate, very scared and nervous, in a panic, told them in the restaurant that Madeleine had gone missing, screaming and frightened.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm

'Because I don't think it started until sort of half six, seven, the actual, you know, the food. Erm, so that wasn't, it, you know, we were sort of thought well this isn't going to work particular well sort of taking them there every night. Erm, and so it wasn't really until the Sunday, I think, that we, we sort of realised you could eat at the Tapas Bar. Erm, and I think, you know, we just looked at it and it, it did feel like you were kind of across, in your back garden, admittedly, a large back garden, but a back garden, erm, and we just thought well that's great, we can just sort of, you know, easily nip across and check the children on a regular basis and, erm, everyone felt sort of quite happy and comfortable with, with that,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

'The windows, erm, to be honest, in Lily's room, we didn't ever check the window. Erm, another thing that you think of. I mean, when we arrived, we assumed it was sort of locked and closed and the shutter was down. And I think we only ever sort of slightly opened, it was one of these shutters where, erm, sort of graded, erm, you can open it a little bit and it just opens up with a few holes to let a little bit of light in but the whole shutter is still actually down.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

'So I can only say, you know, I was quite conscious other people were doing that, erm, but I wasn't part of that. Erm, but, you know, people were very stringent about getting, you know, as I say, clock watching and making sure they went'.
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[Brietta]

Well they would say that wouldn't they when the Portuguese were baying for blood.  Unfortunately for them Mrs Fenn experienced a somewhat different reality on the Tuesday night.  But then that was a mere one off, a blip in an otherwise well oiled procedure.

"Sometimes we would sit out on our balcony and their laughter would float up around us." Bridget O'Donnell
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

Sound carries, particularly on a quiet night and the source can be difficult to pin point.  Bridget's child was difficult to settle.  There were many other children of all ages in the holiday apartments.
There is absolutely no certainty that the child Mrs Fenn heard crying was either Madeleine or her siblings.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Was there any reason any of them had to expect any harm  to come to their child?

When your child has dropped off to sleep, do you keep going in and looking cos I didn't generally.  No sounds outside the door and that was good enough for me and most parents.

My bet is that Gerry carried out a visual that night cos the door had opened slightly since they left.

A visual check took place every half hour that night.  Plus the listening one.


To remind you an audio check from outside, every half hour, was considered enough for decades at holiday camps and hotels across the world.

THe Mccanns did visual ones

Just this one line had me wondering how they ever mad it as doctors!  The child protection documents and NHS Training on this subject is borderline intrusive and cases are built on very shifty comments ...

But for those of you who don't have access to that training expertise here are a few child injury admissions
1 95% burns from bath- parent forgot to increase cold water in mixer taps
2 severe injuries including broken coller bone dislocated shoulder etc- one parent left baby seat at rear of car, the other parent accidentally ran onto baby seat  at the rear of the car
3 alcoholic poisoning- due to parents leaving alcohol in unlocked cupboard reachable by 3 year old child
4 Strangled to death  by blinds cord- parent left the child unattended in a room
5 poison by accessable liquids to children under 4 years old
6  burned by falling into a BBQ while it was unattended by an adult
7 drowned in small garden fish pond- left unattended by an adult
and we also hear of house fires which result in death... all of these things could have occurred in the absence of parents.. Just saying... AND those Doctors all knew of these due to their mandatory training!

[Miss Taken Identity]

With Regularity? OK this time please and anwer the question yes or no... did you all physically check all the children at half hourly intervals.

What kind of answer is this?

'Because I don't think it started until sort of half six, seven, the actual, you know, the food. Erm, so that wasn't, it, you know, we were sort of thought well this isn't going to work particular well sort of taking them there every night. Erm, and so it wasn't really until the Sunday, I think, that we, we sort of realised you could eat at the Tapas Bar. Erm, and I think, you know, we just looked at it and it, it did feel like you were kind of across, in your back garden, admittedly, a large back garden, but a back garden, erm, and we just thought well that's great, we can just sort of, you know, easily nip across and check the children on a regular basis and, erm, everyone felt sort of quite happy and comfortable with, with that,

In fact  what was the bloody question?

nip and check on a regular basis no mention of what kind of check, no mention of a written schedule they all adhered to.
So lets see what Kate N Gerry say...

We went into the childrens room to check themat preciely  half hourly intervals, We had our watches set by it- on one such occasion, I went in and saw Maddie missing.

No it just didn't happen like that or Kate and the rest would have said, wouldn't they or would they have said   yeah , but , no , but ,yeah and then  umm we   errr well you know...

[slartibartfast]

I haven't checked the other rogs ... but Fiona Payne's seems to cover most of the bases in relation to the checking of the children.
Her statement is very concise as to the reasoning behind the suitability of the tapas restaurant as opposed to the difficulties associated with dining at the Millenium restaurant as far as the children were concerned.
It can be seen that they considered the proximity to be a bonus and felt safe to leave their children ... unfortunately no-one factored in the possibility of a stranger entering and stealing one.

She also reiterates the feeling of security given by the shutters in her apartment and the assumption that the windows were locked.

The statement I referred to in my post made it plain the the McCanns were clock watchers when it came to carrying out checks; Fiona confirms not only that but that the other couples were also punctillious when it came to carrying out their checks.



However, she states that Gerald and Kate went with regularity, as did the other couples to ensure that their children were well. On one of these occasions, upon returning, Kate, very scared and nervous, in a panic, told them in the restaurant that Madeleine had gone missing, screaming and frightened.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm

'Because I don't think it started until sort of half six, seven, the actual, you know, the food. Erm, so that wasn't, it, you know, we were sort of thought well this isn't going to work particular well sort of taking them there every night. Erm, and so it wasn't really until the Sunday, I think, that we, we sort of realised you could eat at the Tapas Bar. Erm, and I think, you know, we just looked at it and it, it did feel like you were kind of across, in your back garden, admittedly, a large back garden, but a back garden, erm, and we just thought well that's great, we can just sort of, you know, easily nip across and check the children on a regular basis and, erm, everyone felt sort of quite happy and comfortable with, with that,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

'The windows, erm, to be honest, in Lily's room, we didn't ever check the window. Erm, another thing that you think of. I mean, when we arrived, we assumed it was sort of locked and closed and the shutter was down. And I think we only ever sort of slightly opened, it was one of these shutters where, erm, sort of graded, erm, you can open it a little bit and it just opens up with a few holes to let a little bit of light in but the whole shutter is still actually down.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

'So I can only say, you know, I was quite conscious other people were doing that, erm, but I wasn't part of that. Erm, but, you know, people were very stringent about getting, you know, as I say, clock watching and making sure they went'.
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

So only the last one comes close if we could decipher the English.

[Brietta]

So only the last one comes close if we could decipher the English.

Oh 'we' can decipher the English just fine. Only some of 'us' fail to comprehend that when seven people are attesting in police witness statements to the checking system they used for their children they are going to do so to the best of their ability.  Not to mention independent witnesses who noticed them leaving the table periodically without being able to go into any great detail in their police statements.

Some of 'us' may not like the fact that the children were regularly checked but in the lack of any information which proves the contrary perhaps 'we' should have more care about libelling witnesses n'est–ce pas?

[slartibartfast]

Oh 'we' can decipher the English just fine. Only some of 'us' fail to comprehend that when seven people are attesting in police witness statements to the checking system they used for their children they are going to do so to the best of their ability.  Not to mention independent witnesses who noticed them leaving the table periodically without being able to go into any great detail in their police statements.

Some of 'us' may not like the fact that the children were regularly checked but in the lack of any information which proves the contrary perhaps 'we' should have more care about libelling witnesses n'est–ce pas?

But Mrs Fenn seems to be fair game?

[Alfie]

I only made 3 or 4 posts yesterday but one of them presumably on this thread constituted libel apparently.  Could someone kindly explain what libel I committed?  This is the biggest joke ever!

[Brietta]

But Mrs Fenn seems to be fair game?

In what manner is Mrs Fenn "fair game" on this forum?

[G-Unit]

In their 4th May statements Kate says Gerry went to check at 9.00pm with Russell. Gerry says he went at 9.05pm. David, Fiona and Dianne don't remember. Matthew says he went at 9.05 [after the Paynes arrived] and that Gerry went after his return. It seems Kate may have been asked by Gerry to check before 30 minutes had passed.

Then Gerry came back at around 9.25/9.30 and they started to eat the first course.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm

After placing their orders, at around 9.15pm, Gerry McCann went to check, only his apartment. He was held up for nearly 10 minutes because, he said, he had been chatting with Jes about tennis.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD.htm

She remembers that at about 21.10 Gerald left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to check on the children.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm

[Miss Taken Identity]

Oh 'we' can decipher the English just fine. Only some of 'us' fail to comprehend that when seven people are attesting in police witness statements to the checking system they used for their children they are going to do so to the best of their ability.  Not to mention independent witnesses who noticed them leaving the table periodically without being able to go into any great detail in their police statements.

Some of 'us' may not like the fact that the children were regularly checked but in the lack of any information which proves the contrary perhaps 'we' should have more care about libelling witnesses n'est–ce pas?

No, many can't decipher that English.  The claim is made  by Tapas and parents and supporters, they checked their children every half hour. THEY quite clearly didn't, and the 'checking'  they did do was listening at a door, as and when, not physical checks, and we know this because Kate told us that Maddie had questioned why they were not there the night before when Sean was crying , also heard by Mrs Fen who claimed it lasted more than half an hour.
 The reason for the 'erms' 'um' 'rrr' 'you knows' is quite clearly an excersise to stop them telling the truth- they did not do physical checks on those children at half hourly intervals on ANY evening. and this was, discussed, planned before they even left the UK. The reason for not addmitting this is : They didn't want to be proscecuted for neglect and they didn't want people to hate them...yes their precious reputation more important that telling actual time lines to help police find a child...

[Brietta]

No, many can't decipher that English.  The claim is made  by Tapas and parents and supporters, they checked their children every half hour. THEY quite clearly didn't, and the 'checking'  they did do was listening at a door, as and when, not physical checks, and we know this because Kate told us that Maddie had questioned why they were not there the night before when Sean was crying , also heard by Mrs Fen who claimed it lasted more than half an hour.
 The reason for the 'erms' 'um' 'rrr' 'you knows' is quite clearly an excersise to stop them telling the truth- they did not do physical checks on those children at half hourly intervals on ANY evening. and this was, discussed, planned before they even left the UK. The reason for not addmitting this is : They didn't want to be proscecuted for neglect and they didn't want people to hate them...yes their precious reputation more important that telling actual time lines to help police find a child...

 ... and you presume to know better than the police forces of two nations the significance of witness statements ... in what way?

Just as the police took statements from Murat and other witnesses ... collated and investigated them ... to their satisfaction and to be able to report back to the Prosecutors that there was no evidence linking him to Madeleine's disappearance ... they did the same with all other witness statements.

They didn't take witness statements for fun.

They were gathering evidence and they found no evidence against Murat ... or any of the other main players.

It is incomprehensible to me why some do not find it incompatible with reason ... that the tale of one cop desperate for justification of his own incompetent handling of Madeleine's ... is preferred to the results of the proper investigation carried out by the Brits and the Policia Judiciaria.

In my opinion your last sentence constitutes libel in so many ways and it says a lot more about you than it does about those you libel.