Was Sheila at an increased risk of suicide?

[Holly Goodhead]

Being adopted myself and considering both scenarios I cannot see how it would have a direct impact on the motives but may have a subconscious influence on events leading up to the killings.

If Jeremy committed the crime, I have pointed out that similar crimes have been committed by biological children of the parents and siblings they murdered. Sef Gonzales and the Menendez Brothers to name a few. However in both these cases Sef Gonzales and the Menendez Brothers had extremely strict parents that constantly set them unrealistic goals and had ambitions for them that they could not possibly meet, Jose Menendez their father expected them to become PHD graduates and Champion tennis players at the same time! Did Neville and June do the same for Jeremy? All in all its a combination of deep hatred for your parents along with a selfish financial incentive to kill them.

If Shelia committed the act (should not really be considered a crime as such) Well you can't really make much sense of someone who is Paranoid Schizophrenic combined with religious views that can make one more concerned about judgment in the belief of the life after.

Symptoms are described on the NHS website   
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizophrenia/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

June however being religious and who could not give birth may have considered her position a punishment from God ect. That could have had effects on how the children where raised. 

There is also allot we don't know about the family and how life was inside WHF. Allot is gossip rumors and chatter, The only people who could give anyone a good insight into the family life as a whole is June and Nevill both dead and Jeremy is not a reliable source for obvious reasons. Some things we simply will not have an answer for.

I was adopted too but my adoptive mother did not suffer serious depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment as a result of adopting me and I am assuming your adoptive mother didn't either David? 

Can you show me another so-called inheritance killer where the jury effectively had to decide whether it was one sibling or the other?

Also as you said the other inheritance murderers were biological children not adopted:

http://www.adoptionunchartedwaters.com/understanding-adoptees-who-kill.php

[APRIL]

Being adopted myself and considering both scenarios I cannot see how it would have a direct impact on the motives but may have a subconscious influence on events leading up to the killings.

If Jeremy committed the crime, I have pointed out that similar crimes have been committed by biological children of the parents and siblings they murdered. Sef Gonzales and the Menendez Brothers to name a few. However in both these cases Sef Gonzales and the Menendez Brothers had extremely strict parents that constantly set them unrealistic goals and had ambitions for them that they could not possibly meet, Jose Menendez their father expected them to become PHD graduates and Champion tennis players at the same time! Did Neville and June do the same for Jeremy? All in all its a combination of deep hatred for your parents along with a selfish financial incentive to kill them.

If Shelia committed the act (should not really be considered a crime as such) Well you can't really make much sense of someone who is Paranoid Schizophrenic combined with religious views that can make one more concerned about judgment in the belief of the life after.

Symptoms are described on the NHS website   
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizophrenia/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

June however being religious and who could not give birth may have considered her position a punishment from God ect. That could have had effects on how the children where raised. 

There is also allot we don't know about the family and how life was inside WHF. Allot is gossip rumors and chatter, The only people who could give anyone a good insight into the family life as a whole is June and Nevill both dead and Jeremy is not a reliable source for obvious reasons. Some things we simply will not have an answer for.

An interesting and thought provoking post, David.

In my experience, it's in the upper echelons of society where we find the greatest emphasis is placed on the importance of biological children although in certain cases it has been known to filter down!!!!

It has only been in  recent years that people have been encouraged to speak openly about childhood abuse. I don't have the figures to be able to say how many are adopted of those who do. According to how they have been bought up it's possible that they saw the abuse simply as the discipline necessary to encourage them to be like other children.

We don't KNOW if June's treatment of Sheila was abusive -some, ie: the wider family, may have said she worked hard to maintain the standards she expected Sheila to adopt. Two sides of the same coin, but the adopted child, according to its' temperament, MAY believe they deserve the discipline because they are not conforming in the way they should.

[david1819]

An interesting and thought provoking post, David.

In my experience, it's in the upper echelons of society where we find the greatest emphasis is placed on the importance of biological children although in certain cases it has been known to filter down!!!!

It has only been in  recent years that people have been encouraged to speak openly about childhood abuse. I don't have the figures to be able to say how many are adopted of those who do. According to how they have been bought up it's possible that they saw the abuse simply as the discipline necessary to encourage them to be like other children.

We don't KNOW if June's treatment of Sheila was abusive -some, ie: the wider family, may have said she worked hard to maintain the standards she expected Sheila to adopt. Two sides of the same coin, but the adopted child, according to its' temperament, MAY believe they deserve the discipline because they are not conforming in the way they should.

Also Junes religious belief's would have done Shelia's condition no favours what so ever. Someone with Schizophrenia with belief in the Bible is a bad combination. If Shelia had committed the act I don't know if its more depressing than Jeremy doing it. In Shelia's mind she would have believed she was sending her parents and children to heaven along with herself to all live happily, there would have been no callousness or malice going through her mind believing she is doing what's best for her children. maybe considering herself a poor mother and daughter so there all better off in the afterlife when in reality out of Shelia's mind sadly that's not the case. If Jeremy is the culprit it really proves some people are evil beyond belief, childhood abuse could to some extend explain the murdering of his parents but no excuse what so ever for the murder of his sister and nephews its an unforgivable crime.

[david1819]

I was adopted too but my adoptive mother did not suffer serious depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment as a result of adopting me and I am assuming your adoptive mother didn't either David? 

I don't particularly want to discuss the circumstances.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't particularly want to discuss the circumstances.

Fair enough David.

In general terms are you aware of any other cases where a woman has adopted a baby and then suffers severe depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment as a direct result of her decision to adopt that baby?

[John]

I don't think you can apply generalisations to June's circumstances as everyone is different in the way they cope with situations.  Whatever the reasons, there was no justification for what Jeremy did.

[APRIL]

I don't think you can apply generalisations to June's circumstances as everyone is different in the way they cope with situations.  Whatever the reasons, there was no justification for what Jeremy did.

John, not for a moment was I suggesting it should be condoned, but it can be understood. I'm inclined to think it was a situation with all the ingredients of the perfect storm.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't think you can apply generalisations to June's circumstances as everyone is different in the way they cope with situations.  Whatever the reasons, there was no justification for what Jeremy did.

If by "June's circumstances" you mean the severe depression she suffered as a result of adopting SC resulting in in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment, I think we need to also consider how SC coped with June's severe depression and the loss of yet another 'primary caregiver'.  I should point out here that I do not blame June in any shape or form; the blame must lie with the authorities that approved June as a suitable adopter and Dr Ferguson for not alerting social services and allowing SC to remain in the care of NB and June.  The fact they were allowed to go on and adopt another child beggars belief.

Imo anyone interested in the WHF case needs to understand 'Attachment'.  It is not some airey-fairy concept.  It  is one of the most widely researched aspects of psychology. I've just Googled the following and noted the number of hits:

Attachment and adoption = 62,000,000

Attachment and violence = 46,300,000

Attachment and suicide = 11,200,000

Attachment and neuroscience = 1,380,000

Attachment and maternal depression 206,000

Attachment affects all of us from the cradle to the grave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-9ylhnA7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8

[John]

If by "June's circumstances" you mean the severe depression she suffered as a result of adopting SC resulting in in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment, I think we need to also consider how SC coped with June's severe depression and the loss of yet another 'primary caregiver'.  I should point out here that I do not blame June in any shape or form; the blame must lie with the authorities that approved June as a suitable adopter and Dr Ferguson for not alerting social services and allowing SC to remain in the care of NB and June.  The fact they were allowed to go on and adopt another child beggars belief.

Imo anyone interested in the WHF case needs to understand 'Attachment'.  It is not some airey-fairy concept.  It  is one of the most widely researched aspects of psychology. I've just Googled the following and noted the number of hits:

Attachment and adoption = 62,000,000

Attachment and violence = 46,300,000

Attachment and suicide = 11,200,000

Attachment and neuroscience = 1,380,000

Attachment and maternal depression 206,000

Attachment affects all of us from the cradle to the grave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-9ylhnA7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8

Apologies for last post now deleted as it was meant for another thread.

It is true that Sheila and Jeremy both would have had a difficult upbringing by virtue of June's depression but that said, both of them added to that depression signifcanty in later years.  Depression like most conditions will vary enormously from person to person, each will react differently.  It just so happened that Junes apparent predisposition to the condition was triggered by her inability to have children of her own.

Arguing that Sheila was responsible for the murders on the basis of her adoption and her upbringing is to put it mildly, grasping at very narrow straws.

[APRIL]

Apologies for last post now deleted as it was meant for another thread.

It is true that Sheila and Jeremy both would have had a difficult upbringing by virtue of June's depression but that said, both of them added to that depression signifcanty in later years.  Depression like most conditions will vary enormously from person to person, each will react differently.  It just so happened that Junes apparent predisposition to the condition was triggered by her inability to have children of her own.

Arguing that Sheila was responsible for the murders on the basis of her adoption and her upbringing is to put it mildly, grasping at very narrow straws.

John, would "contributed to by default" be more acceptable to you? You see, whilst I can accept that both Sheila and Jeremy were well past the age at which they should have started taking responsibility for their own action, those actions were were defined by their upbringing, for which June was partly responsible. I've had many people complain to me that their children show the little or no respect. I suspect that those children didn't know how because they'd never experienced respect being shown them/within the family.

ADOPTED children who MAY, in overly religious/moralistic households, have been bought up to feel that they carry a burden of responsibility for their illegitimacy OR are made to feel that they will only be acceptable when they conform to family standards.

I see the whole situation as sad beyond belief. It was NEVER June's fault that she couldn't have children. NOR was it her fault that she suffered depression but it wasn't Sheila and Jeremy's fault either. Children have no sense if irony and don't understand sarcasm. They take every word they hear and every word said to them at face value. If Sheila EVER heard it whispered that June had been hospitalized because she'd adopted Sheila, she'd have believed it was her fault, carried the guilt with her, and done her utmost to be the daughter June wanted her to be. The possible effect it would have had on Jeremy is that her saw her as a "creep" and taking June's attention away from him. Imagine the anger and resentment he would have held, imagining Sheila to be the favourite. Sheila who did NOTHING to earn it but was given it just the same and then the possibility that he would have to move out of HIS cottage to allow Sheila and her boys to live there. Could be the anger stored up all those years finally exploded.

I'm not looking to condone but I DO feel it's important to understand.

[John]

John, would "contributed to by default" be more acceptable to you? You see, whilst I can accept that both Sheila and Jeremy were well past the age at which they should have started taking responsibility for their own action, those actions were were defined by their upbringing, for which June was partly responsible. I've had many people complain to me that their children show the little or no respect. I suspect that those children didn't know how because they'd never experienced respect being shown them/within the family.

I don't disagree certainly.  The two children were defined to a large degree by their upbringing.  That said however, children of mixed parentage can be brought up in a household and end up at opposite ends of the right and wrong spectrum.  Much of how children turn out will be defined in their DNA.

I personally believe that most of the damage was done outside the family ie at boarding school.



Victims June Bamber and adopted daughter Sheila with Jeremy in happier times.

[John]

ADOPTED children who MAY, in overly religious/moralistic households, have been bought up to feel that they carry a burden of responsibility for their illegitimacy OR are made to feel that they will only be acceptable when they conform to family standards.

I know lots of adopted people, some within my own family, and although some of them rebelled in their younger days, none of them were so evil as to commit murder.

I see no excuse for what Jeremy did in his adoption or upbringing.

[John]

I see the whole situation as sad beyond belief. It was NEVER June's fault that she couldn't have children. NOR was it her fault that she suffered depression but it wasn't Sheila and Jeremy's fault either. Children have no sense if irony and don't understand sarcasm. They take every word they hear and every word said to them at face value. If Sheila EVER heard it whispered that June had been hospitalized because she'd adopted Sheila, she'd have believed it was her fault, carried the guilt with her, and done her utmost to be the daughter June wanted her to be. The possible effect it would have had on Jeremy is that her saw her as a "creep" and taking June's attention away from him. Imagine the anger and resentment he would have held, imagining Sheila to be the favourite. Sheila who did NOTHING to earn it but was given it just the same and then the possibility that he would have to move out of HIS cottage to allow Sheila and her boys to live there. Could be the anger stored up all those years finally exploded.

I'm not looking to condone but I DO feel it's important to understand.

I don't agree with your first part.  Both Sheila and Jeremy's conduct contributed to her failing mental health imo.  Given Junes own strict religious upbringing she would have been both devastated and embarrassed at Sheila's conduct.  This would have been exacerbated by her own inability to conceive.  Jeremy for his part brought much stress to June as a result of his New Zealand exploits followed by the Osea Caravan Park robbery.

I agree on the second half of your post.  That I believe was the final straw for Jeremy.  June didn't want him to marry Julie and Sheila was homeward bound with the twins meaning bachelor boy would have to give up his cottage in Goldhanger and return to his old ways at the farmhouse.   By doing this Neville and June were (apologies) killing two birds with the one stone!  One the one hand they would regain control of Jeremy having him under their roof and on the other hand they would have Sheila and the twins close to home and easier to monitor.

[APRIL]

I don't agree with your first part.  Both Sheila and Jeremy's conduct contributed to her failing mental health imo.  Given Junes own strict religious upbringing she would have been both devastated and embarrassed at Sheila's conduct.  This would have been exacerbated by her own inability to conceive.  Jeremy for his part brought much stress to June as a result of his New Zealand exploits followed by the Osea Caravan Park robbery.

I agree on the second half of your post.  That I believe was the final straw for Jeremy.  June didn't want him to marry Julie and Sheila was homeward bound with the twins meaning bachelor boy would have to give up his cottage in Goldhanger and return to his old ways at the farmhouse.   By doing this Neville and June were (apologies) killing two birds with the one stone!  One the one hand they would regain control of Jeremy having him under their roof and on the other hand they would have Sheila and the twins close to home and easier to monitor.

But we are told that June suffered her first breakdown when Sheila was only about 18 months old. Are you saying that her behaviour triggered June's on going mental health problems. IF this had been the case then I would have to concur that if Sheila hadn't been removed from her care, she should NEVER have been allowed to adopt for a second time. Jeremy wouldn't have stood a chance.

I concur that S and J's behaviour as they grew exacerbated June's mental problems. Growing children who want to find their own feet are invariably difficult for parents to understand, especially a parent with rigid views about how children should be. I wonder if she ever voiced the opinion that if she'd had her "own" children, they would never have behaved in such a way.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't disagree certainly.  The two children were defined to a large degree by their upbringing.  That said however, children of mixed parentage can be brought up in a household and end up at opposite ends of the right and wrong spectrum.  Much of how children turn out will be defined in their DNA.

I personally believe that most of the damage was done outside the family ie at boarding school.



Victims June Bamber and adopted daughter Sheila with Jeremy in happier times.

JB looks the spitting image of my adopted brother in that photo.  Even wearing the same shirt.

The camera never lies or does it?  Interesting to note that JB has his arm around June and SC chose to pick up the dog and hold it with both hands?   &%+((£  Did SC want to incl the dog and excl June or am I getting a bit carried away?   &%+((£

I doubt you will find a psychologist, psychiatrist, neuroscientist in the world that will agree that boarding school had an adverse effect on SC/JB over June's mental illness circa 1959 which resulted in another separation from a 'primary caregiver' for SC and the potential for an 'attachment disorder' eg 'disorganised'.  This is all now fully supported by neuroscience showing that attachment (or lack of) neglect (defined as unresponsiveness) changes brain architecture giving rise to aggression and violence. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4513.msg167782#msg167782

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4513.msg163034#msg163034