Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.

[Mr Gray]

$450 a day plus expenses is not 'very lucrative'.
What does it tell us though? That his services are highly valued.
I know what you're driving at, just say it. If there's any substance to it, you needn't worry.

What is the normal rate for a police dog handler... 450 seven days, a, week whether working or not... Plus expenses... Grime complained about his hotel room and was upgraded

[The General]

What is the normal rate for a police dog handler... 450 seven days, a, week whether working or not... Plus expenses... Grime complained about his hotel room and was upgraded

$450 a day is about £350. Self-employed that's a relatively low rate.
If you don't like your hotel room, you complain and get another one. I'm surprised you find that noteworthy, as if it's some kind of character flaw. There's innumerable reasons why you ask to swap room; cigarette smells, right next to the elevators, right next to a noisy fire door, right next to an extractor fan, room facing the downstairs nightclub, crack den next door, can't accommodate a man and a dog comfortably.
You seem bent on chipping away at the man's integrity.

[Mr Gray]

$450 a day is about £350. Self-employed that's a relatively low rate.
If you don't like your hotel room, you complain and get another one. I'm surprised you find that noteworthy, as if it's some kind of character flaw. There's innumerable reasons why you ask to swap room; cigarette smells, right next to the elevators, right next to a noisy fire door, right next to an extractor fan, room facing the downstairs nightclub, crack den next door, can't accommodate a man and a dog comfortably.
You seem bent on chipping away at the man's integrity.

I'm stating some facts... We have to disagree Grimes contract was or wsdnt lucrative for a police dog handler

[The General]

I'm stating some facts... We have to disagree Grimes contract was or wsdnt lucrative for a police dog handler

Being self-employed I can tell you that I wouldn't consider $450 a day + expenses as lucrative to trapse over to Jerkwater, Nebraska, dog in toe. I consider it a loss leader; do a good job in the hope of attracting more work in my specialist and much sought-after field.

So what's the pertinence of your point that he moved hotel rooms?

[Mr Gray]

Being self-employed I can tell you that I wouldn't consider $450 a day + expenses as lucrative to trapse over to Jerkwater, Nebraska, dog in toe. I consider it a loss leader; do a good job in the hope of attracting more work in my specialist and much-sought after field.

So what's the pertinence of your point that he moved hotel rooms?

It depends what you do..

[The General]

It depends what you do..

It does. It would seem quite lucrative for an apprentice Spoon Whittler from Wakefield.

[Mr Gray]

This is my take on the Grime situation...To me Grime is a man on amission.all my opinion but with some facts as well. Its along answer so may come in sections.

Grime trains detection dogs and is relatively skilled at it...I dont beleive from what I have read its a particularly difficult thing to do. Detection dogs in all fields have been judged on what they find. Drug dogs find drugs and that confirms their alerts. I wonder how many times they alert and nothing is found. Eddie was a cadaver dog and is trained to find human remains....Harrison confirms this in his statement and according to harrison thats why Eddie was sent to PDL.

The problem is cadaver dogs seem to alert regularly where nothing tangible is found. This certainly happened in PDL...Jersey and Detroit.  As I see it Grime wanted to take his cadaver dogs to a new level...a level where not just the evidence founfd but the alerts themselves were treated as evidence.

his statements in Luz made it clear that alerts would only be corroborated if remains were found..he now appears to have made a seismic shift in what he considers corroboration...and imo ...its difficult to justify  such a dramatic shift.

[Mr Gray]

Grime seems to want to elevate cadaver dogs to a new level... a level where much more credence is palced on the alerts and thats why hes decided that he needs scientific validation to acchieve that. grime..imo..is on a mission to elevate the staus of cadaver dogs.

So how could he achieve this. He had probably read about Stockham in the US. So did Stockam and the FBI approach grime or did grime approach the FBi and offer his services. in Stockham grime would have seen someone who shared his vision.

The problem then is did Grime and Stockham deliver...Ive seen nothing to suggest they have...but to me Grime seems to think he did. I feel grime now feels his alerts have scientific basis and therefore corroboration is not so stringent. If thats the case then the evidence for it needs to be published so it can be challenged....

[The General]

This is my take on the Grime situation...To me Grime is a man on amission.all my opinion but with some facts as well. Its along answer so may come in sections.

Grime trains detection dogs and is relatively skilled at it...I dont beleive from what I have read its a particularly difficult thing to do. Detection dogs in all fields have been judged on what they find. Drug dogs find drugs and that confirms their alerts. I wonder how many times they alert and nothing is found. Eddie was a cadaver dog and is trained to find human remains....Harrison confirms this in his statement and according to harrison thats why Eddie was sent to PDL.

The problem is cadaver dogs seem to alert regularly where nothing tangible is found. This certainly happened in PDL...Jersey and Detroit.  As I see it Grime wanted to take his cadaver dogs to a new level...a level where not just the evidence founfd but the alerts themselves were treated as evidence.

his statements in Luz made it clear that alerts would only be corroborated if remains were found..he now appears to have made a seismic shift in what he considers corroboration...and imo ...its difficult to justify  such a dramatic shift.

You make him sound like a snake oil salesman, foisting his questionable wares on an ignorant, buck-toothed, hick populous, then doubling down by stating that it now banishes demons.
He's clearly trying to grow his business and where better than states that actively innovate and usher in new / different detection techniques.

As for this continued 'remains were found' mantra, as I elaborated yesterday, vestiges of remains, is remains, is evidence. Don't you think it's even more impressive that the dog alerts to the place where the remains / cadaver used to be? That's doubling down! No, let's go one further, not only can the dog find actual remains, the dog can tell us where that body was stored! So you're actually, inadvertently, enhancing the abilities of the dogs.

[Mr Gray]

So why was Grime sought out for the Lane case. I think its because Stockham is dead but Grime is carrying on his beliefs in the value of the alerts. grime was willing to stae his dogs are scientiffically tested and have passed those tests with ahigh rtae of accuracy...the way the evidence was presented I cant see how the jury could not see it as a confirmation of death ..which it isnt.

Grime is presenting his dogs as the real deal...with a high degree of reliability backed by scientific test. From what Ive seen they arent. Placing contamination on a few carpet squares and seeing if the dog reacts is not a reliable guide to the value of alerts in the field...it just isnt proper science...as lanes attorney said,,...its junk science


grime beleives his dogs...he now believes they have scientific validation...thats dangerous..imo

[Mr Gray]

You make him sound like a snake oil salesman, foisting his questionable wares on an ignorant, buck-toothed, hick populous, then doubling down by stating that it now banishes demons.
He's clearly trying to grow his business and where better than states that actively innovate and usher in new / different detection techniques.

As for this continued 'remains were found' mantra, as I elaborated yesterday, vestiges of remains, is remains, is evidence. Don't you think it's even more impressive that the dog alerts to the place where the remains / cadaver used to be? That's doubling down! No, let's go one further, not only can the dog find actual remains, the dog can tell us where that body was stored! So you're actually, inadvertently, enhancing the abilities of the dogs.

THe remains were found is not my mantra..It was Grimes mantra...established vestiges count as remains...a few dna cells dont.

There is no evidence that the alerts to where a body was stored is relaible...you can beleive it...I want evidence


you have made an important point today as you did yesterday


Grime is trying to grow his business...good point

[G-Unit]

No I'm not... So who do you think wanted him... Question..

Has any American dog handler appeared in court and made the claims grime has... Was grime headhunter because he was the only person willing to make the claims that resulted in the alerts being admissable... In what other US cases have the alerts been admitted

Your post #384
snip/
I think I know why the prosecutors wanted grime and not a n other dog handler

In my opinion you need to provide the cite I requested to support your statement.

[Mr Gray]

Your post #384
snip/
I think I know why the prosecutors wanted grime and not a n other dog handler

In my opinion you need to provide the cite I requested to support your statement.

I dont have a cite... I dont think Grime was passing by by chance so he must have been approached...its the prosecutions case so who approached him

[The General]

So why was Grime sought out for the Lane case. I think its because Stockham is dead but Grime is carrying on his beliefs in the value of the alerts. grime was willing to stae his dogs are scientiffically tested and have passed those tests with ahigh rtae of accuracy...the way the evidence was presented I cant see how the jury could not see it as a confirmation of death ..which it isnt.

Grime is presenting his dogs as the real deal...with a high degree of reliability backed by scientific test. From what Ive seen they arent. Placing contamination on a few carpet squares and seeing if the dog reacts is not a reliable guide to the value of alerts in the field...it just isnt proper science...as lanes attorney said,,...its junk science


grime beleives his dogs...he now believes they have scientific validation...thats dangerous..imo

What would you expect to see, as a distinguished scientist yourself, as a test that would be rigorous enough to pass muster?
Maybe we can establish a standard.

[Mr Gray]

What would you expect to see, as a distinguished scientist yourself, as a test that would be rigorous enough to pass muster?
Maybe we can establish a standard.

I have some ideas.....later. Theres one where the dog involved failed miserably...Ill have to see if I can find it..
work now....Im self employed too...