Author Topic: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.  (Read 180830 times)

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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2015, 03:53:17 PM »
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?

That seems to be the suggestion.
One presumes if there is a minimum required standard there will be a record of handlers and dogs who have achieved the standard and when the next re-certification is due.
Is there evidence that if this a requirement it was not complied with?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2015, 03:53:43 PM »
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?

Tiresome ... but true to form you never disappoint ... try to come back sometime with a post containing material worth posting or even that merits an answer.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2015, 03:55:19 PM »
That seems to be the suggestion.
One presumes if there is a minimum required standard there will be a record of handlers and dogs who have achieved the standard and when the next re-certification is due.
Is there evidence that if this a requirement it was not complied with?

Is there?  Do tell.

Google is quite a good search engine I am told if you do not have the information to hand.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline jassi

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2015, 03:57:37 PM »
Tiresome ... but true to form you never disappoint ... try to come back sometime with a post containing material worth posting or even that merits an answer.

My role to to question - clearly something you don't like.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Benice

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2015, 04:16:47 PM »
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?

It would seem that there were concerns over the training and monitoring of sniffer dogs in general - during Eddie and Keela's time with the police force.

Quote from Skye.

"Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.

The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.  The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.  "There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.  "Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".  "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.

The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time.  The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.  The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.  A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.  But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.

Sniffer dogs hindered the police probe into Shannon Matthew's disappearance

Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.  The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.  "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died,"  according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year. "
 





The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline DCI

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Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2015, 04:25:19 PM »
Are you saying that the dogs weren't accredited to a satisfactory standard?

South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog

Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.
ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'

Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.' He said his fees were 'all agreed' and that he had given Jersey a 'discount'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline jassi

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2015, 04:26:26 PM »
South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog

Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.
ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'

Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.' He said his fees were 'all agreed' and that he had given Jersey a 'discount'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles

Thank you
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline misty

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2015, 04:41:54 PM »
Grime's dogs got top marks at FBI body farm. Why do you think they employed him? New forensics next.

"U.K., A.C.P.O. licensed and accredited cadaver dogs are trained and licensed
on the basis of the relevant section of the Police Dog Training and Care
manual. This involves the training of G.P. (General Purpose) dogs to alert to
the presence of surface deposition and sub-surface deposition to
approximately 2 feet. The dogs are deployed on long lines to search an area
in large numbers...
Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are
independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals
as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained. They are
tested to units of assessment prepared as a stand-alone system as these
dogs are unique
."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf
The Police Dog guidance indicates all the criteria that, if not fulfilled, lead to suppression of the license.
It's not only the dog's ability to react correctly to human remains and only to that, it's also obedience, etc.
The basic question is "Did the team safely and successfully complete the task ?"
There are quite a few accidents with police dogs (innocent persons bitten...), hence the "safely" as well as in the case of explosives (what if a positive is missed by the dog ?).


So, Grime's dogs are unique & are tested in a stand-alone system?
It's such a pity FBI dogs didn't inspect the various locations.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2015, 04:46:42 PM »
So, Grime's dogs are unique & are tested in a stand-alone system?
It's such a pity FBI dogs didn't inspect the various locations.


"He (Eddie) has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2015, 05:03:58 PM »
My role to to question - clearly something you don't like.


 ... I wasn't aware that I was your own private search engine ... guess what ... I've just resigned ... better try google in future ...
                          %£&)**#
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline jassi

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2015, 05:09:05 PM »

 ... I wasn't aware that I was your own private search engine ... guess what ... I've just resigned ... better try google in future ...
                          %£&)**#

I don't recall asking you for anything other than a yes or no - even you should be able to manage that.

However, someone else was kind enough to supply an answer.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2015, 05:14:56 PM »
Is there?  Do tell.

Google is quite a good search engine I am told if you do not have the information to hand.

I was asking not telling  8(>((
You made the comparison with gas fitters who have to have a Gas Safe Registration Number. I presumed you were trying to imply there was a similar accreditation system for dogs and handlers; if you were not I don't see the point of that particular post.
Mind you if a dog cocks it up it may not find a dead body. If a gas fitter cocks it up he may create a few. There is that much difference.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline misty

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2015, 05:18:33 PM »
"He (Eddie) has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

So Eddie was "unique" by the standards expected of UK dogs in that he could recognise 2 different types of cadaver. Does that mean that all other UK VRD's would have failed FBI testing standards?

Offline jassi

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2015, 05:26:51 PM »
Presumably Eddie was unique amongst UK dogs in that he had taken the test.
Not being tested does not mean that other dogs would fail the test, only that they might.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #104 on: January 22, 2015, 05:53:53 PM »
Presumably Eddie was unique amongst UK dogs in that he had taken the test.
Not being tested does not mean that other dogs would fail the test, only that they might.
Eddie was unique amongst all sniffer dogs that have ever been for he appears to be the only one to ever be described as an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog.  What accreditation was required for that title I wonder...?