Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.

[Holly Goodhead]

It might help if you had not referred to the actions of those you are seeking help from as childish. You won't get any help from sceptics Re zampo but you might from supporters

I did not refer to any particular group as 'childish'.  I said I thought the whole sceptic/supporter thing is childish. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10827.msg541685#msg541685

I don't want or need help just looking for some civilised debate about an interesting case.

[Mr Gray]

I did not refer to any particular group as 'childish'.  I said I thought the whole sceptic/supporter thing is childish. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10827.msg541685#msg541685

I don't want or need help just looking for some civilised debate about an interesting case.

thats your opinion but just about every poster here has used the terms and its quite a useful term to use in some situations....Such as ...supporters tend to be sceptical of the dogs whilst sceptics seem to accept them as evidence,


Im not sure how i would get that message over in any other simple way and dont seee it as  childish at all

[Vertigo Swirl]

Do me a favour plse and just outline briefly your point.  Thanks.

It's very easy to find by google, and also this forum has a search function - put Zampo in ans see what comes up - briefly, Zampo was a cadaver dog that was led to an outdoor wooded location by a suspect serial killer and alerted in 45 places at this location.  the suspect was subesequently found guilty, having also confessed to these many murders.  The only problem was, he didn't actually have anything whatsoever to do with the killings. Hence the dog alerts were highly questionable, unless by some incredible coincidence the suspect led the police and dog to a place in the forest where a dead body had once been. 

[G-Unit]

because of the sensitivity of the dogs and the poor testing methods its not possible to say with any certainty that an alert is related to the case in question or evn is to cadaver scent. This hasnt been a real problem because the alerts were not seen as evidence having no evidential value. They were a guide as to where investigators should look for evidence,. This was the accepted view in 2007 but it seems grime has now moved the goal posts and wants the alerts to be seen as more than intelligence.

The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.

[Vertigo Swirl]

The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.

Successfully for whom?

[Holly Goodhead]

The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.

I can see they have the potential as a useful forensic tool in the box so to speak but I doubt the CPS would get a case to court on the basis of the dog alerts alone let alone a conviction?

[Mr Gray]

The fact is that the alerts by 'cadaver dogs' have been used successfully in the courts as circumstantial evidence since 2007. You can hardly expect Grime to ignore that fact.

Never in England Ireland Wales... Once in scotland
He ignored it Luz
LCN was used in the UK extensively till challenged and it's limitations exposed

Some US states, also use canine line up ID which had been shown to be unreliable and the cause of several miscarriages of justice.

Afaics... Grime is on a mission to make them accepted and his views have changed dramatically  since 2007

His science and tests are poor imo... And that's why they are not accepted in England

[Mr Gray]

I can see they have the potential as a useful forensic tool in the box so to speak but I doubt the CPS would get a case to court on the basis of the dog alerts alone let alone a conviction?

As I understand  the alerts have never been allowed in an English court.

How widespread is the use if the dogs... If half the claims are true why are they digging up a whole field to find Suzy lamplugh

[Mr Gray]

The first change I would suggest to Grimes test is to introduce more odours
100 felt tiles
One or two with cadaver
Some with stale urine and other bodily fliuds
Some with decayed foodstuffs

What about sone antique furniture

Other suggestions possible

Those are the sort of things the dogs would alert to in the field


Would they still score in the high nineties

[G-Unit]

I can see they have the potential as a useful forensic tool in the box so to speak but I doubt the CPS would get a case to court on the basis of the dog alerts alone let alone a conviction?

They have been used in Scotland as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley#Prosecution_case

[Holly Goodhead]

thats your opinion but just about every poster here has used the terms and its quite a useful term to use in some situations....Such as ...supporters tend to be sceptical of the dogs whilst sceptics seem to accept them as evidence,


Im not sure how i would get that message over in any other simple way and dont seee it as  childish at all

Well it sounds a tad childish and tribal to me but if you're all ok with these terms of ref then so be it! 

As it stand at the moment I just can't see any evidence that the McCanns/T7 were directly involved in MM's disappearance but, as with all these cases, people interpret things differently and apply different weights to the various aspects. 

[Holly Goodhead]

They have been used in Scotland as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley#Prosecution_case

But the operative word in your post is surely 'collection'? 

What collection of circumstantial evidence exists against the McCanns?

[Mr Gray]

Well it sounds a tad childish and tribal to me but if you're all ok with these terms of ref then so be it! 

As it stand at the moment I just can't see any evidence that the McCanns/T7 were directly involved in MM's disappearance but, as with all these cases, people interpret things differently and apply different weights to the various aspects.

I can't see any way the parents are involved but if new evidence comes to light that could change.
Pedro DaCarmo  said around two years ago when head of the PJ that there was no evidence against the mccanns... And that they were not suspects... SY don't seem to regard them as suspects so I don't see things changing

[G-Unit]

Never in England Ireland Wales... Once in scotland
He ignored it Luz
LCN was used in the UK extensively till challenged and it's limitations exposed

Some US states, also use canine line up ID which had been shown to be unreliable and the cause of several miscarriages of justice.

Afaics... Grime is on a mission to make them accepted and his views have changed dramatically  since 2007

His science and tests are poor imo... And that's why they are not accepted in England

I think it's just a matter of time until the alerts are used in evidence in England and Wales. When the right case comes along they will be imo.

[Mr Gray]

They have been used in Scotland as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley#Prosecution_case

As I have said according to the family the appeal court criticised the admissibility of this evidence
It seems you have just case and nothing else

I don't see the dogs being used much and I don't see them being useful apart from less than a couple of cases over the last 12 years.  What I have seen in the official report from Jersey is criticism if them