Author Topic: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.  (Read 181235 times)

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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #630 on: July 05, 2019, 08:08:03 AM »
Thanks for the admission.  Now perhaps you’d like to try and figure out how the cadaver odour emanated from Madeleine’s corpse in the time frame, working with all the known facts.

What time frame?

The dogs didn't go in 30 or 85 minutes later.

They went in months later.
What's up, old man?

Offline The General

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #631 on: July 05, 2019, 08:09:57 AM »
For the benefit of others..

wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2013/03/03/dog-scent-lineups-one-of-the-junkiest-of-the-junk-sciences/
I agree. The use of dogs in such circumstances is unreliable at best.
Not casting aspersions, but it would seem that some of police forces in these Southern states were left to their own devices when creating policy and procedure.
Subject Matter Expert - Hobos.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #632 on: July 05, 2019, 08:11:42 AM »
What time frame?

The dogs didn't go in 30 or 85 minutes later.

They went in months later.

you completely misunderstand the situation...what relevance is there to how long after the dogs went in re development of cadaver odour...youve made the same post before and shown to be wrong.
note we are talking about the detection and development of cadaver odour...not blood

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #633 on: July 05, 2019, 08:12:46 AM »
I agree. The use of dogs in such circumstances is unreliable at best.
Not casting aspersions, but it would seem that some of police forces in these Southern states were left to their own devices when creating policy and procedure.

but it wasnt considered unreliable at the time...it was accepted as evidence and suspects were convicted
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:15:57 AM by Davel »

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #634 on: July 05, 2019, 08:18:40 AM »
you completely misunderstand the situation...what relevance is there to how long after the dogs went in re development of cadaver odour...youve made the same post before and shown to be wrong.
note we are talking about the detection and development of cadaver odour...not blood

Where to begin?

Note the thread title.

I'd be grateful if you would cut the goad per post.  The forum would be much more civilised.
What's up, old man?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #635 on: July 05, 2019, 08:18:48 AM »
What time frame?

The dogs didn't go in 30 or 85 minutes later.

They went in months later.
The time frame of the evening of 3rd May 2007 of course.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #636 on: July 05, 2019, 08:28:35 AM »
The time frame of the evening of 3rd May 2007 of course.

As the dogs did not enter 5A on 3 May, it's the wrong time frame.

But many thanks for a civil answer.   *&(+(+
What's up, old man?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #637 on: July 05, 2019, 08:39:39 AM »
As the dogs did not enter 5A on 3 May, it's the wrong time frame.

But many thanks for a civil answer.   *&(+(+
I don’t understand what you mean.  I am asking Billy to think about how the  alerts months later  could have been to Madeleine’s body within the timeframe of the events of the evening of May 3rd if it takes 85 minutes before a body starts to emit cadaver odour.  If you don’t understand what I’m saying that’s fine, I expect Billy will and look forward to his reply.  Adieu.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #638 on: July 05, 2019, 08:53:48 AM »
Where to begin?

Note the thread title.

I'd be grateful if you would cut the goad per post.  The forum would be much more civilised.

Perhaps you can justify your claim... You can't because you've made the same claim before... You are considering blood... Not cadaver... I've got a good memory

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #639 on: July 05, 2019, 08:55:22 AM »
I don’t understand what you mean.  I am asking Billy to think about how the  alerts months later  could have been to Madeleine’s body within the timeframe of the events of the evening of May 3rd if it takes 85 minutes before a body starts to emit cadaver odour.  If you don’t understand what I’m saying that’s fine, I expect Billy will and look forward to his reply.  Adieu.

Sil is talking about the alerts to blood not cadaver....

Offline Eleanor

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #640 on: July 05, 2019, 08:59:59 AM »
As the dogs did not enter 5A on 3 May, it's the wrong time frame.

But many thanks for a civil answer.   *&(+(+

It's the length of time a corpse takes to develop Cadaver Scent.  And not how much later the dogs were taken in.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #641 on: July 05, 2019, 09:09:21 AM »
Sils under the impression that dried blood produces cadaver odour... I know because there were 100 pages on the topic six months ago

Offline Eleanor

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #642 on: July 05, 2019, 09:10:55 AM »

I think I've lost the plot again.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #643 on: July 05, 2019, 09:35:02 AM »
The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.

Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)

For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.

 Another scenario that would explain Eddie's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?

You mentioned the case of Shannon Matthews in one of your posts.  This is what The Nat Policing Agency said in a review of the case which included the use of Victim Recovery Dogs:

"The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died.  This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

5A didn't belong to the McCann's.  They simply rented if for 7 nights.  How would anyone know the history of the place in terms of materials used in construction, construction workers, fixtures and fittings, furniture and human traffic any of which may have come into contact with a corpse directly or indirectly and then caused the dog to alert?

The only owner occupier in the block was Mrs Fenn situated directly above 5A.  Prior to purchasing her apt at OC she lived elsewhere in Portugal with her husband who suffered Alzheimer's.  Upon his demise she purchased the apt.  Is it possible the dog alerts were connected to Mrs Fenn's apt?

Re the hire car were the control cars like for like ie hired or similar?  If the control cars sustained far fewer drivers/passengers then there's less likelihood of them coming into contact directly or indirectly with a corpse.  For all we know the hire car might have been rented by an undertaker.  What checks if any were carried out on the cars to determine their history?

Afaik the substance thought to be blood as evidenced by the dog alert wasn't visible to the naked eye?  LCN DNA tests were inconclusive.  Therefore it seems to me if the substance was blood the potential sources are many and varied: people cut themselves shaving or on sharp implements, children have bangs and scrapes, women have periods, etc, etc. 

I'm not a McCann supporter just looking at reasonable explanations for the alerts other than something sinister.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #644 on: July 05, 2019, 09:35:47 AM »
It's the length of time a corpse takes to develop Cadaver Scent.  And not how much later the dogs were taken in.

That's entirely the wrong ball game.

It's the length of time it would have taken for both Eddie and Keela to alert.

If an incident had occurred in 5A months prior to MBM's disappearance would E&K alert? Yes!

If the incident related to MBM's disappearance, would E&K alert months later? Yes!

If an incident occurred in 5A after MBM's disappearance, would E&K alert to that when deployed?  Yes!

It's the deployment date that is important.
What's up, old man?