Author Topic: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet  (Read 5738 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« on: January 14, 2016, 06:26:54 PM »
I. Bullet Fragments

Take note that I numbered them according to Vanezis' report to the extent possible not in chronological order of firing. Those fragments conclusively tied to being fired by the Anschutz by rifling marks are in green.

Sheila
1) upper wound (chin) PV/19
2) lower wound (neck) PV/20


Nevill
1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body
2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1
3) PV/3 top of skull
4) PV/4 top of skull

5) PV/10 (lip)         
6) PV/11 (jaw)
7) PV/2  (Shoulder)
8) DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)


Wounds 1-4 were received in the kitchen, wounds 5-8 in the master bedroom. DRH/5 was recovered in the master bedroom.  In addition PV/5 was a very small fragment that broke off from either PV10 or PV/11. Since both bullet traveled in the area where PV/5 was found there is no way to tell for sure which it is from.

June
1) PV/25 between eyes
2) PV/26 above right ear
3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
5) PV/24 right upper chest

6) PV/23 lower chest
7) DRH/9 knee

Daniel

There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room.  There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds.  The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:

PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)


Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow

Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of the fragments were removed during the autopsy.

II. Spent Casings

All 25 casings were conclusively tied to having been fired by the Anschutz

Sheila
DRH/1
DRH/2

June
DRH/3 most likely associated with chest shot
DRH/4 (loaded 2 times) most likely associated with chest shot
DRH/13 shot between the eyes

Nevill in bedroom
DRH/8 (loaded 2 times)

June and Nevill in bedroom
4 additional shots June suffered and 3 additional shots Nevill suffered in the bedroom- there is no way to say for sure which relate to whom only that 4 relate to June and 3 to Nevill:
DRH/6
DRH/7a
DRH/7b
DRH/10
DRH/11
DRH/12
DRH/43

Nevill's kitchen wounds
DRH/14
DRH/19 (loaded 2 times)
DRH/20
DRH/41

Twin's Room
DRH/16
DRH/17
DRH/18
DRH/37
DRH/38 (loaded 2 times)
DRH 39a (loaded 2 times)
DRH/39b
DRH 40


Take notice that 5 cases were loaded in the magazine twice.  This means these rounds had been loaded into the magazine then unloaded at some past point in time then reloaded again to commit the murders.  These rounds were not loaded consecutively in the weapon they were fired during different episodes. This means after being unloaded they were intermingled among bullets that were not previously loaded into the magazine and randomly ended up in different batches.  One of the 29 bullets spilled on the counter also had been previously loaded and unloaded. 

As the above indicates 2 of the twice loaded spent casings was found in the master bedroom, 1 was in the kitchen and the last two were found in the rooms that the twins died in. This makes clear the 5 bullets were not loaded consecutively.  The gun was loaded 3 times.  2 of the bullets made their way into the first loading batch, 1 in the second batch and 2 in the final batch.  That is the most we can tell.  We can't figure out exactly where the bullet was in the magazine load only which loading batch they were in.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline puglove

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 11:42:37 PM »
I. Bullet Fragments

Take note that I numbered them according to Vanezis' report to the extent possible not in chronological order of firing. Those fragments conclusively tied to being fired by the Anschutz by rifling marks are in green.

Sheila
1) upper wound (chin) PV/19
2) lower wound (neck) PV/20


Nevill
1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body
2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1
3) PV/3 top of skull
4) PV/4 top of skull

5) PV/10 (lip)         
6) PV/11 (jaw)
7) PV/2  (Shoulder)
8) DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)


Wounds 1-4 were received in the kitchen, wounds 5-8 in the master bedroom. DRH/5 was recovered in the master bedroom.  In addition PV/5 was a very small fragment that broke off from either PV10 or PV/11. Since both bullet traveled in the area where PV/5 was found there is no way to tell for sure which it is from.

June
1) PV/25 between eyes
2) PV/26 above right ear
3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
5) PV/24 right upper chest

6) PV/23 lower chest
7) DRH/9 knee

Daniel

There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room.  There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds.  The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:

PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)


Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow

Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of the fragments were removed during the autopsy.

II. Spent Casings

All 25 casings were conclusively tied to having been fired by the Anschutz

Sheila
DRH/1
DRH/2

June
DRH/3 most likely associated with chest shot
DRH/4 (loaded 2 times) most likely associated with chest shot
DRH/13 shot between the eyes

Nevill in bedroom
DRH/8 (loaded 2 times)

June and Nevill in bedroom
4 additional shots June suffered and 3 additional shots Nevill suffered in the bedroom- there is no way to say for sure which relate to whom only that 4 relate to June and 3 to Nevill:
DRH/6
DRH/7a
DRH/7b
DRH/10
DRH/11
DRH/12
DRH/43

Nevill's kitchen wounds
DRH/14
DRH/19 (loaded 2 times)
DRH/20
DRH/41

Twin's Room
DRH/16
DRH/17
DRH/18
DRH/37
DRH/38 (loaded 2 times)
DRH 39a (loaded 2 times)
DRH/39b
DRH 40


Take notice that 5 cases were loaded in the magazine twice.  This means these rounds had been loaded into the magazine then unloaded at some past point in time then reloaded again to commit the murders.  These rounds were not loaded consecutively in the weapon they were fired during different episodes. This means after being unloaded they were intermingled among bullets that were not previously loaded into the magazine and randomly ended up in different batches.  One of the 29 bullets spilled on the counter also had been previously loaded and unloaded. 

As the above indicates 2 of the twice loaded spent casings was found in the master bedroom, 1 was in the kitchen and the last two were found in the rooms that the twins died in. This makes clear the 5 bullets were not loaded consecutively.  The gun was loaded 3 times.  2 of the bullets made their way into the first loading batch, 1 in the second batch and 2 in the final batch.  That is the most we can tell.  We can't figure out exactly where the bullet was in the magazine load only which loading batch they were in.

Scipio, I'm probably being horribly dim here, but could you explain "twice loaded"? Were the bullets taken out of the magazine, then put back in? Why would that happen?
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 12:02:04 AM »
Scipio, I'm probably being horribly dim here, but could you explain "twice loaded"? Were the bullets taken out of the magazine, then put back in? Why would that happen?

Someone loaded 6 of them them in the magazine (including one that was not used in the killings) never fired them and when putting the rifle away removed them and put them back into the ammunition supply.  The reason for doing so is because they didn't want to leave the gun loaded for safety reasons and also it is not good for the magazine to keep it loaded.  If the magazine sits loaded for an extended period the spring weakens and it can misfeed.

Mike stupidly claims 5 were in the magazine already when Jeremy found the gun and that proof of that is the fact 5 of those used were loaded 2 times.  He claims this is why there were 5 extra bullets in the kitchen.  This makes no sense because if they were left in the gun they would simply have been loaded once.   Moreover, the bullets that had been loaded previously were not in consecutive fashion.  Only 2 of the bullets loaded 2 times were used in the initial shooting episode in the master bedroom.  Another was loaded in the kitchen to kill Nevill and yet 2 more to kill the twins. 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 12:13:10 PM »
How is it possible to tell which bullets have been reloaded?  Some sort of mark I guess?  Would this have any detrimental effect on the bullet?  When I inspected them at the gun shop I rubbed quite firmly the bullet (tip - grey/lead bit) and the thin film of paraffin wax came away so if the bullets are inserted, removed and reinserted this could potentially remove all or part of the thin film of paraffin wax?  What's the point of the paraffin wax/lubricant?  To help ease its passage through the mechanical parts of the rifle and out the barrel?

I'm sure I've seen an inventory of the gun cupboard but I'm unable to locate now?

AE states in her WS DB removed a bag of ammo from the gun cupboard and placed it in the kitchen with "other guns and ammunition".  Where was the other ammunition found? 

EP seized the ammunition from the kitchen worktop (29 cartridges under exhibit label DRH/22) along with the cartridge case and the one remaining cartridge inside under exhibit label DRH/23 - MF's WS attached below.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3108

29 x cartridges on kitchen worktop = DRH/22:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

Was the ammo found by the relatives submitted to EP?  I don't recall seeing any info to this effect and/or exhibit labels? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 12:43:08 PM »
How is it possible to tell which bullets have been reloaded?  Some sort of mark I guess?  Would this have any detrimental effect on the bullet?  When I inspected them at the gun shop I rubbed quite firmly the bullet (tip - grey/lead bit) and the thin film of paraffin wax came away so if the bullets are inserted, removed and reinserted this could potentially remove all or part of the thin film of paraffin wax? What's the point of the paraffin wax/lubricant?  To help ease its passage through the mechanical parts of the rifle and out the barrel?

I'm sure I've seen an inventory of the gun cupboard but I'm unable to locate now?

AE states in her WS DB removed a bag of ammo from the gun cupboard and placed it in the kitchen with "other guns and ammunition".  Where was the other ammunition found? 

EP seized the ammunition from the kitchen worktop (29 cartridges under exhibit label DRH/22) along with the cartridge case and the one remaining cartridge inside under exhibit label DRH/23 - MF's WS attached below.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3108

29 x cartridges on kitchen worktop = DRH/22:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

Was the ammo found by the relatives submitted to EP?  I don't recall seeing any info to this effect and/or exhibit labels?

The wax is to prevent build-up of lead deposits in the breech (where the bullet is first loaded) and rifling grooves, which would affect a rifle's performance. That's why shooters have to be meticulous in cleaning the bore every so often.

Fourteen boxes of 12-bore Raker cartridges, also in the gun cupboard. For this and other weaponry found, see Wilkes, pages 69, 70-71.

No idea if EP took any further ammo, although if it was for the shotgun, I doubt it.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 12:56:06 PM »
The wax is to prevent build-up of lead deposits in the breech (where the bullet is first loaded) and rifling grooves, which would affect a rifle's performance. That's why shooters have to be meticulous in cleaning the bore every so often.

Fourteen boxes of 12-bore Raker cartridges, also in the gun cupboard. For this and other weaponry found, see Wilkes, pages 69, 70-71.

No idea if EP took any further ammo, although if it was for the shotgun, I doubt it.

Thanks.  I'll have to dig out my copy of Wilkes. 

I'm beginning to think the cartridges JB left on the kitchen worktop had nothing to do with the murders and the perp used ammunition from elsewhere.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 07:00:39 PM »
How is it possible to tell which bullets have been reloaded?  Some sort of mark I guess?  Would this have any detrimental effect on the bullet?  When I inspected them at the gun shop I rubbed quite firmly the bullet (tip - grey/lead bit) and the thin film of paraffin wax came away so if the bullets are inserted, removed and reinserted this could potentially remove all or part of the thin film of paraffin wax?  What's the point of the paraffin wax/lubricant?  To help ease its passage through the mechanical parts of the rifle and out the barrel?

I'm sure I've seen an inventory of the gun cupboard but I'm unable to locate now?

AE states in her WS DB removed a bag of ammo from the gun cupboard and placed it in the kitchen with "other guns and ammunition".  Where was the other ammunition found? 

EP seized the ammunition from the kitchen worktop (29 cartridges under exhibit label DRH/22) along with the cartridge case and the one remaining cartridge inside under exhibit label DRH/23 - MF's WS attached below.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3108

29 x cartridges on kitchen worktop = DRH/22:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

Was the ammo found by the relatives submitted to EP?  I don't recall seeing any info to this effect and/or exhibit labels?

The abu ammo carrier and extra rifle ammunition were exhibit DRB/3 but nothing publicly released describes with exactness how many bullets were in the exhibit nor details whether any of these were used for loading tests and other firing tests though it seems absurd they would use the kitchen supply yet not use these and opt to instead buy their own.

In most basic terms the lubricant on the bullet is to make the bullet fire more smoothly and on the case is so that it will extract properly. It can dry or feel tacky and end up not helping but rather hurting. There should still be enough lube left on it after loading but you can wipe it off enough that it affects performance.

This article talks about why 22LR are different than centerfire cartridges. You may have problems understanding it and unfortunately I can't really translate better than the simplistic way I did above.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/9/10/the-impossible-22-rimfire/

When you load the cases in the magazine the lips leave parallel scratches.  There were 2 sets of scratches on 5 of the spent cartridges thus they had been loaded 2 different times.  One of the unfired had a single set of loading marks thus revealing it too have been loaded at one point then unloaded without being fired. 

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 07:16:49 PM »
Was the ammo found by the relatives submitted to EP?  I don't recall seeing any info to this effect and/or exhibit labels?

Yes

Here is DRB/3



He said 7 boxes of ammo and an empty box. It is unclear whether all 7 were completely full or whether one had a few rounds missing.  A literal reading means full but one would want to ask him for clarification purposes. If all full that is 350 rounds.   

At the time of collection Oakey called it AE/2 but is was subsequently reclassified DB/3 and finally DRB/3

Here is DRB/4



He was subsequently sent to the closet to see if he could find anything else and took a number of things into evidence including the rifle thread protector which he refers to as a cun cap and also another unfired raker shotgun cartridge:



“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 11:25:35 PM »
Is the abu ammo carrier the one that was hanging on the wall of the unused staircase?  I've seen a photo of the unused staircase which is situated in the corner of the kitchen between the Aga and welsh dresser and marked S2 on floor plans.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 12:44:30 AM »
Is the abu ammo carrier the one that was hanging on the wall of the unused staircase?  I've seen a photo of the unused staircase which is situated in the corner of the kitchen between the Aga and welsh dresser and marked S2 on floor plans.

No it was in the office closet. It was basically a bag with a strap attached and was large enough to hold at least 8 boxes of ammo. Multiple boxes are fairly heavy so there is no way one would actually want to walk around with it though one could decide to carry it then put it down before shooting so you had a nearby supply at the ready.  Easier still wound be carrying one box and putting it down. 

Scenario: Killer goes in the closet and find 5 rounds in 1 box.  Uses 5 from that box and 5 from another to fully load the magazine. Then takes the box containing 45 rounds out of the office and uses 15 more bullets in the reloading.  That will result in the empty box in the abu carrier and the 30 remaining in the box that was taken from the office.

This thread contains a photo of the stairs used as a storage closet that you are referring to:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1047.15

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 10:33:57 AM »
No it was in the office closet. It was basically a bag with a strap attached and was large enough to hold at least 8 boxes of ammo. Multiple boxes are fairly heavy so there is no way one would actually want to walk around with it though one could decide to carry it then put it down before shooting so you had a nearby supply at the ready.  Easier still wound be carrying one box and putting it down. 

Scenario: Killer goes in the closet and find 5 rounds in 1 box.  Uses 5 from that box and 5 from another to fully load the magazine. Then takes the box containing 45 rounds out of the office and uses 15 more bullets in the reloading.  That will result in the empty box in the abu carrier and the 30 remaining in the box that was taken from the office.

This thread contains a photo of the stairs used as a storage closet that you are referring to:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1047.15

Are you talking generally ie when NB/JB were out shooting or as an aid to the murders?  If JB was responsible would he want to run the risk of the abu (what does abu mean?) carrier getting blood or other incriminating evidence on it?

I think there are too many unknowns ie how many cartridges in how many boxes and whether there were any hanging around other than those on the kitchen worktop.   Even if we knew everything the permutations are infinite. 

If SC was responsible and loaded the magazine from the gun cupboard and then reloaded where did she do this eg on the floor in the den by the gun cupboard, NB's desk, on the settle or some other place?  Either way I would expect to maybe find a small pile somewhere in the vicinity of the gun cupboard.  It seems odd to me she would load the magazine at least three times by returning to the gun cupboard and then everything was returned to its normal place.  Or was it?  How would we know if she grabbed a load of bullets and some were found elsewhere ie some location she used to reload.   

What state was the ammo/gun cupboard in when EP found it?  Was the door open or closed?

That looks a horrible mess behind the door (staircase S2) and is that rising damp on the wall?  I think someone said there was an ammo carrier hanging on the wall.  Something hanging on the wall, to the left, no idea what it is.


Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 10:49:08 AM »
The abu ammo carrier and extra rifle ammunition were exhibit DRB/3 but nothing publicly released describes with exactness how many bullets were in the exhibit nor details whether any of these were used for loading tests and other firing tests though it seems absurd they would use the kitchen supply yet not use these and opt to instead buy their own.

In most basic terms the lubricant on the bullet is to make the bullet fire more smoothly and on the case is so that it will extract properly. It can dry or feel tacky and end up not helping but rather hurting. There should still be enough lube left on it after loading but you can wipe it off enough that it affects performance.

This article talks about why 22LR are different than centerfire cartridges. You may have problems understanding it and unfortunately I can't really translate better than the simplistic way I did above.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/9/10/the-impossible-22-rimfire/

When you load the cases in the magazine the lips leave parallel scratches.  There were 2 sets of scratches on 5 of the spent cartridges thus they had been loaded 2 different times.  One of the unfired had a single set of loading marks thus revealing it too have been loaded at one point then unloaded without being fired.

Thanks for all the info Scipio.

On 10th August the relatives found the silencer, telescopic sights, firearms and ammunition.  I wonder why/who deemed it appropriate for DS Jones to collect the silencer only on 12th Aug and send to the lab with some urgency for forensic analysis on 13th August.  DI Cook then took it for fingerprinting.  Why were the other exhibits collected around a month later?  Why not send them to the lab and then for fingerprining?  Especially the cartidge boxes and anything they were contained in.  AE's WS makes reference to a "carrier bag".

I would like to know if other ammo was found hanging around ie out of boxes loose in a pile somewhere? 

If 350 rounds of .22 left from the 500 rounds purchased in Nov '84 plus JB said the box he accessed was "fairly full" this would mean that they only used circa 100 rounds over some 8 months.  Does that sound about right?  When I'm driving around at certain times of the year with headlights on bunnies seem to come from all directions on country roads.  100 rounds doesn't seem a lot for bunny control over an eight month period?  That's only 12/13 a month. 

Was any of the other ammo found at WHF capable of being fired in the rifle? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 12:52:36 PM »
Are you talking generally ie when NB/JB were out shooting or as an aid to the murders?  If JB was responsible would he want to run the risk of the abu (what does abu mean?) carrier getting blood or other incriminating evidence on it?

I think there are too many unknowns ie how many cartridges in how many boxes and whether there were any hanging around other than those on the kitchen worktop.   Even if we knew everything the permutations are infinite. 

If SC was responsible and loaded the magazine from the gun cupboard and then reloaded where did she do this eg on the floor in the den by the gun cupboard, NB's desk, on the settle or some other place?  Either way I would expect to maybe find a small pile somewhere in the vicinity of the gun cupboard.  It seems odd to me she would load the magazine at least three times by returning to the gun cupboard and then everything was returned to its normal place.  Or was it?  How would we know if she grabbed a load of bullets and some were found elsewhere ie some location she used to reload.   

What state was the ammo/gun cupboard in when EP found it?  Was the door open or closed?

That looks a horrible mess behind the door (staircase S2) and is that rising damp on the wall?  I think someone said there was an ammo carrier hanging on the wall.  Something hanging on the wall, to the left, no idea what it is.

ABU - Ammunition Back Up?

Don't fret, Holly. Sheila never loaded any bullets, whether on her knees in front of the gun cupboard... or anywhere else FTM.

Rising damp, age-old grime or a combination of both. Laughable to think some Bamber supporters believe Sheila would stumble over all that debris on S2 to reach the first floor. An OCD sufferer's nightmare.

Looks like a hung up ABU to me.... giyf.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 05:17:46 PM »
Are you talking generally ie when NB/JB were out shooting or as an aid to the murders?  If JB was responsible would he want to run the risk of the abu (what does abu mean?) carrier getting blood or other incriminating evidence on it?

I think there are too many unknowns ie how many cartridges in how many boxes and whether there were any hanging around other than those on the kitchen worktop.   Even if we knew everything the permutations are infinite. 

If SC was responsible and loaded the magazine from the gun cupboard and then reloaded where did she do this eg on the floor in the den by the gun cupboard, NB's desk, on the settle or some other place?  Either way I would expect to maybe find a small pile somewhere in the vicinity of the gun cupboard.  It seems odd to me she would load the magazine at least three times by returning to the gun cupboard and then everything was returned to its normal place.  Or was it?  How would we know if she grabbed a load of bullets and some were found elsewhere ie some location she used to reload.   

What state was the ammo/gun cupboard in when EP found it?  Was the door open or closed?

That looks a horrible mess behind the door (staircase S2) and is that rising damp on the wall?  I think someone said there was an ammo carrier hanging on the wall.  Something hanging on the wall, to the left, no idea what it is.

Mike and others have made up that the ammo carrier and ammunition were all over the house. The reality is that the only ammunition was in the closet and in the kitchen next to the telephone.

The closet was closed the crime scene officers went through it generally removing the shotgun and some other things including the ammo bag thus noticed the ammunition but did not look through everything so didn't notice the scope or moderator. They didn't take the ammunition they just put it back thus David found it when he went through the closet. One would think that they would want to take every firearm, bullet and firearm related item but they didn't until essentially forced in September to do that.

50 bullets is a lot of bullets so taking one box is more than enough to reload from whether you are target shooting, shooting vermin or planning to kill people. So I don't see the carrier ever having been used to walk around with multiple boxes of ammunition.

It is clear to me that the killer emptied one box, then loaded 5 rounds from the other box and took that box out to reload further from using a further 20 from it. The killer could have left it in the office to reload from or could have taken it to the kitchen we have no way to know.  Maybe Jeremy dumped it out by the phone after beating Nevill unconscious. Pulling individual bullets out while wearing gloves would be a big hassle so dumping them out would be a lot easier.       

As for only 95 rounds being used the 8 months prior to the murders what that denotes is that the weapon wasn't used regularly like Jeremy contended to police during his interrogation.  Of course Jeremy didn't initially claim it was used regularly he initially told police it wasn't used a week to fortnight before the murders. After police described AP as the last known user and for it to have the moderator and scope attached he changed his story and claimed he and Nevill both repeatedly used it the week leading up to the murders and claimed during that week Nevill repeatedly removed and reinstalled the scope and moderator.

In all likelihood 20-30 rounds were used for zeroing the rifle, 50-90 for target practice and perhaps 15-20 for shooting vermin if it ever was used to shoot vermin- if used to shoot vermin it was so rare that no one at the farm ever saw Nevill or Jeremy use it for that purpose.  The limited use explains why it still looked so new when Anthony saw it.

Making up that he and Nevill used it multiple times a day is just further evidence that he had something to hide because you don't make up lies for no reason.  This particular lie was to pretend that Nevill would often remove the moderator and scope to pretend that it is reasonable for him to have found the weapon with the scope and moderator already removed. The reality is that he removed the scope himself prior to the murders because it would inhibit accurate close quarter aiming of the weapon, and used the moderator to commit the murders then removed it and put it away and made up the story of leaving it out without the moderator attached so no one would look for it. He didn't want police to know he is the one who did it though so he told various lies including initially saying the gun didn't fit in the closet with the moderator and scope attached so they needed to be removed after each use. When this was proven untrue he changed to saying it didn't fit in its case with the scope and moderator attached but Nevill purchases no case for it. Ultimately he came up with the tale of Nevill repeatedly using the weapon the week before the murders sometimes putting it away with the scope and moderator attached other times putting it away with them not attached. Jeremy claimed he also used it so that is how he knew but he just used it however he found it he didn't bother to attach or remove anything.

These lies were all aimed to conceal he removed the scope in order to commit the murders and used the moderator to commit the murders but then removed it after.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic Evidence cheat sheet
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 06:12:01 AM »
For Holly,  this (Woodcock) must be where you got the information about a bandolier hanging in the stairway it was for shotgun shells:

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli