Petition re Madeleine McCann on Prime Minister's website

[stephen25000]

Yes Stephen I am well aware that you think you know better than SY.

What is evidently extremely obvious Benice, is that SY have failed to find Madeleiene or how she disappeared from the apartment.

[John]

I agree with the Petition in that Scotland Yard have themselves fuelled controversy by creating a vacuum around the case.  They spend over £12 million on a child disappearance case and they think they can palm the public off with the odd crumb?

Has there been anything from SY on the investigation other than the announcement that it was being drastically scaled back?

[blonk]

So do you think SY should have kept the perpetrators informed of their progress then - by giving the public a running commentary on the case - rather than the 'odd crumb'.     Surely not.

stephen25000 quite rightly referred to details of all the people they were re-interviewing with those utterly farcical sets of 254 pre-prepared rogatory interview questionnaires; IIRC one question was: "Did you kill Madeleine McCann?"

But over and above that, during late 2012 and most of 2013 we had an endless procession of Scotland Yard-sourced stories, about:

* burglars
* men in a white van
* an Ocean Club staff member with a spare set of keys
* a black bloke from the Cape Verde Islands who once drove a tractor but is now dead
* more burglars
* a smelly bin man
* paedophiles...

..and so on.

They have given a running commentary on their investigation beyond any that I have ever seen in any other investigation here or abroad.

I would pose this question: was all of that leaking something that really advanced their investigation?

Or was it just to influence public perception?        

[blonk]

Has there been anything from SY on the investigation other than the announcement that it was being drastically scaled back?

NO. Nothing. The general view is that Operation Grange will be wound down completely and 'shelved' before very long.

And that when it does, there will prpbably be a short statement saying something like this:

"We have put a Herculaen effort into this"

"We have left no stone unturned"

"Nobody could have done more than we have, and we've used some of the Met's top detectives" 

"We have followed x hundred lines of enquiry, checked x tens thousands of documents, checked x thousand  mobile phone records. checked out x hundred paedophiles, checked out x dozen suspects and persons of interest..."

"...But are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine".

For anyone who has closely followed each and every one of Redwood's utterances and who saw the Crimewatch McCann Special in 2013, it is likely they may also end up saying something like this:

"We now know - after finding Crecheman - that Madeleine was abducted, possibly by a burglar, between 9.10pm and 10.00pm on Thursday 3 May. We think he murdered Madeleine. But despite our best efforts, we stlil don't know who this was".       

Those who have signed the petition want a much better account than that for what the Met has achieved after five years and £12 million   

[Alice Purjorick]

NO. Nothing. The general view is that Operation Grange will be wound down completely and 'shelved' before very long.

And that when it does, there will prpbably be a short statement saying something like this:

"We have put a Herculaen effort into this"

"We have left no stone unturned"

"Nobody could have done more than we have, and we've used some of the Met's top detectives" 

"We have followed x hundred lines of enquiry, checked x tens thousands of documents, checked x thousand  mobile phone records. checked out x hundred paedophiles, checked out x dozen suspects and persons of interest..."

"...But are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine".

For anyone who has closely followed each and every one of Redwood's utterances and who saw the Crimewatch McCann Special in 2013, it is likely they may also end up saying something like this:

"We now know - after finding Crecheman - that Madeleine was abducted, possibly by a burglar, between 9.10pm and 10.00pm on Thursday 3 May. We think he murdered Madeleine. But despite our best efforts, we stlil don't know who this was".       

Those who have signed the petition want a much better account than that for what the Met has achieved after five years and £12 million

Do you think that this will be a joint statement by MPS and PJ ?
The PJ are the organisation with primacy so presumably there will need to be a contemporaneous closure of their investigation with a similar conclusion otherwise any statement from MPS will be meaningless.

[blonk]

Do you think that this will be a joint statement by MPS and PJ?

NO. This will be SY on its own. I don't think there's a jot of evidence that the PJ have been doing anything active in this investigation since July 2008.

Yes, they technically 'reopened' their investigation.

They have had several meetings with biscuits with the PJ - with Redwood and his team captured on camera by arrangements with media photographers who made sure that the British public had images of them 'doing something'.

They facilitated Redwood's farcical search of some waste ground - providing guards around the site and a Mark III Alouette top-of-the-range military helicopter for Redwood and his ream to fly around in - again with media photographers tipped off.

They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013.

But nothing else, I think. Indeed press reports spoke of the PJ's utter contempt for Scotland Yard and even spoke of 'open warfare' between the two forces.       

I expect the PJ to say merely that they will reopen their investigation if any 'new and credible' evidence turns up.

Which is what they said over 7 years ago in July 2008.

I doubt very much if - despite five years and £12 million - Redwood had - or Wall has - any 'new and credible evidence' to give to the PJ.         

[Carana]

NO. This will be SY on its own. I don't think there's a jot of evidence that the PJ have been doing anything active in this investigation since July 2008.

Yes, they technically 'reopened' their investigation.

They have had several meetings with biscuits with the PJ - with Redwood and his team captured on camera by arrangements with media photographers who made sure that the British public had images of them 'doing something'.

They facilitated Redwood's farcical search of some waste ground - providing guards around the site and a Mark III Alouette top-of-the-range military helicopter for Redwood and his ream to fly around in - again with media photographers tipped off.

They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013.

But nothing else, I think. Indeed press reports spoke of the PJ's utter contempt for Scotland Yard and even spoke of 'open warfare' between the two forces.       

I expect the PJ to say merely that they will reopen their investigation if any 'new and credible' evidence turns up.

Which is what they said over 7 years ago in July 2008.

I doubt very much if - despite five years and £12 million - Redwood had - or Wall has - any 'new and credible evidence' to give to the PJ.       

Can you substantiate this?

Blonk:
"They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013."

- Who, on foreign territory, can conduct interviews?

Blonk: "Indeed press reports spoke of the PJ's utter contempt for Scotland Yard and even spoke of 'open warfare' between the two forces."

- Which press reports? Do any such reports quote an identified PJ source?

[Alice Purjorick]

NO. This will be SY on its own. I don't think there's a jot of evidence that the PJ have been doing anything active in this investigation since July 2008.

Yes, they technically 'reopened' their investigation.

They have had several meetings with biscuits with the PJ - with Redwood and his team captured on camera by arrangements with media photographers who made sure that the British public had images of them 'doing something'.

They facilitated Redwood's farcical search of some waste ground - providing guards around the site and a Mark III Alouette top-of-the-range military helicopter for Redwood and his ream to fly around in - again with media photographers tipped off.

They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013.

But nothing else, I think. Indeed press reports spoke of the PJ's utter contempt for Scotland Yard and even spoke of 'open warfare' between the two forces.       

I expect the PJ to say merely that they will reopen their investigation if any 'new and credible' evidence turns up.

Which is what they said over 7 years ago in July 2008.

I doubt very much if - despite five years and £12 million - Redwood had - or Wall has - any 'new and credible evidence' to give to the PJ.       

To reopen the case in Portugal the judiciary there must have had new evidence in 2013.
You can't believe that "tractor man" was dusted off as new evidence as a justification for reopening the case in Portugal just to please the MPS surely ?
In that case it would seem to be a vast conspiracy to arrive at a predetermined outcome but to what end  ?
I don't do conspiracy theories as they usually only work at a hindsight level. I can see merit in some of what you say however.

The case will not be closed by some politico pulling the plug as that will leave them too exposed.......well their fingerprints will not be found on the plug.
It the MPS come up empty handed I would have thought it pragmatic not to speculate and leave the Portuguese Archiving Report as the ruling document. After all there is a chance that a live person or remains may turn up.

[blonk]

Can you substantiate this?

Blonk:
"They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013."

- Who, on foreign territory, can conduct interviews?

Blonk: "Indeed press reports spoke of the PJ's utter contempt for Scotland Yard and even spoke of 'open warfare' between the two forces."

- Which press reports? Do any such reports quote an identified PJ source?

Here is one report, from the Sunday Express, 7 September 2014, the seventh anniversary of the McCanns being made suspects. It touches on both issues you raised (see bits highlighted in bold):

====

Madeleine McCann hunt slowed by Portuguese court chaos

SCOTLAND Yard’s probe into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is being held up because of chaos in the Portuguese legal ¬system, the Sunday Express has learned.

By James Murray  PUBLISHED: PUBLISHED: 00:01, Sun, Sep 7, 2014
      
Scotland Yard detectives have been left frustrated with the Portuguese system [EPA/GETTY].

Frustrated detectives want to quickly press ahead with their investigations and have sent a fifth letter of request detailing their requirements to legal chiefs in Portugal. The process is being bogged down because of major changes in the way justice is delivered.

In an attempt to improve the service, 20 courts have closed creating a huge backlog of cases and a nightmare for administrators. Trials are being held up as vast amounts of documents are moved all over the country in a bid to streamline the service. So government lawyers are giving priority to running trials and urgent cases.

A legal official in Portugal said: “The system is a mess, which is causing a huge political row between the right-of-centre government and the socialist opposition. There are delays but people are working extra hours to try to get everything moving again.

“This all means that Maddie is taking a low priority because all the effort is going on keeping the courts running. There is also a new prosecutor in Portimao on the Algarve who is having to be fully briefed on scores of cases, including Madeleine’s, and that all takes time. There are delays but people are working extra hours to try to get everything moving again.”

It is understood that the Yard detectives have requested to do further work on the background of three arguidos, or suspects, and several other people they believe could have important information.

Yard officers can sit in on interviews but they have to be conducted by Portuguese detectives.

They are now anxiously awaiting the formal legal response to their request before they can plan their next moves.
The hold-up is the latest problem to affect the work to find the youngster who, then aged three, vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve in May 2007.

Last week details emerged about a Home Office report which showed British police forces helping with the search for Madeleine hampered the Portuguese investigation.

So many UK agencies were keen to be seen to be helping, it created a “sense of chaos and competition”.
That damaged relations with Portuguese police and had a long-term negative effect, according to the unpublished findings of Jim Gamble, former head of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre.
Commissioned by former home secretary Alan Johnson in 2009, the report was delivered the following year and led to the Met Police reopening the investigation into the disappearance.

The Home Office, which would not release the report under Freedom of Information laws, declined to comment.

====

There was another report, also in the Express IIRC, headlined: 'IT'S WAR', which detailed the lack of co-operation and outright hostility between the two forces, but I can't find it now. I very much doubt if any senior PJ official went on the record to speak about this hostility; no doubt it was an 'off the record' briefing. 

You are right, Scotland Yard devised their questionnaires - with their template list of 254 questions for each witness to answer - and it was the Portuguese Police, not SY, who actually conducted the interviews, with SY sitting in on them.

I doubt if all of this effort yielded any information of use although it provided useful raw material for the British press to highlight that these rogatory interviews were taking place and to suggest that SY really really did have in their sights a credible bunch of suspects. I recall there was a reference to translators but can't be absolutely certain who provided them, the PJ or SY.           

[Carana]

@ Blonk

One thing at a time.

You said:

"They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013."

As substantiation, you've just highlighted:

"Yard officers can sit in on interviews but they have to be conducted by Portuguese detectives."


In case any of us are confused as to what you are talking about, here is your earlier comment:

Quote from: blonk on Today at 12:39:18 PM

    NO. This will be SY on its own. I don't think there's a jot of evidence that the PJ have been doing anything active in this investigation since July 2008.

    Yes, they technically 'reopened' their investigation.

    They have had several meetings with biscuits with the PJ - with Redwood and his team captured on camera by arrangements with media photographers who made sure that the British public had images of them 'doing something'.

    They facilitated Redwood's farcical search of some waste ground - providing guards around the site and a Mark III Alouette top-of-the-range military helicopter for Redwood and his ream to fly around in - again with media photographers tipped off.

    They sat in and translated during Scotland Yard's rogatory interviews in 2013.

    But nothing else, I think. Indeed press reports spoke of the PJ's utter contempt for Scotland Yard and even spoke of 'open warfare' between the two forces.       

    I expect the PJ to say merely that they will reopen their investigation if any 'new and credible' evidence turns up.

    Which is what they said over 7 years ago in July 2008.

    I doubt very much if - despite five years and £12 million - Redwood had - or Wall has - any 'new and credible evidence' to give to the PJ.       

[John]

Could we stick to facts please and leave the speculations to others.TY

[Carana]

Deleted.

[blonk]

The overwhelming majority on this thread are strongly opposed to the petition.

The overwhelming majority on this thread think that the petition is wholly unnecessary because Operation Grange is a totally honest, no holds barred, full and fearless search for the truth.

The overwhelming majority seem to think I have no right to even explain why I am running the petition nor to explain why I suggest that the Scotland Yard investigation is not what it seems.

Our respective positions are well known. This thread has become personal, a kind of one-way interrogation. I can't see this thread shedding much more light on the subject of the petition.

But, once again, thanks to all of you who have bothered to sign it                 

[misty]

The overwhelming majority on this thread are strongly opposed to the petition.

The overwhelming majority on this thread think that the petition is wholly unnecessary because Operation Grange is a totally honest, no holds barred, full and fearless search for the truth.

The overwhelming majority seem to think I have no right to even explain why I am running the petition nor to explain why I suggest that the Scotland Yard investigation is not what it seems.

Our respective positions are well known. This thread has become personal, a kind of one-way interrogation. I can't see this thread shedding much more light on the subject of the petition.

But, once again, thanks to all of you who have bothered to sign it               

Why don't you wait until the investigation has concluded, one way or the other, before questioning the role of the Met & the expenditure incurred? Doesn't Madeleine deserve that?

[Carana]

(snip)

To put it simply, if it does nothing else, the petition servers as a rallying point for those who have concerns about the case as a whole and the very strange investigations - both private and official - that have gone on to try and solve it. 
     

I still don't understand what those concerns actually are...