Someone else who noted...was correct

[scipio_usmc]

In the past someone asserted that the butt of the rifle could not have landed on Sheila's legs if she had fired the fatal shot without the moderator attached.  I ignored it at the time it was made but that person was correct.  I don't remember who made the assertion it may have been John but may very well have been someone else.

Both shots to Sheila were fired not at the center of her neck and chin but rather the right side of her neck and chin.  The bullets did not go straight in rather the bullets went from right to left indicating the rifle was angled and being held to the right side facing towards the left.  Sheila's killer clearly was standing to the right of her.

In order for Sheila to have fired the fatal shot the butt of the rifle could not be above her legs but rather was angled to the right of her close to the ground and would have fallen on the ground not on her leg.  There is no conceivable way it could fall on her leg and yet be fired at the angle it was.



So if she had shot herself while lying down or even while seated and then fell back either the rifle would have been off her body entirely (because as you fall you actually pull away from the weapon) or at the most the very tip of the barrel would have been across her shoulder with the bulk of it on the floor like so:



Moreover, had she fired the gun then her right arm also would have been out to her right side not across her body.  It's impossible to achieve the right to left bullet trajectory with the gun directly in front of her body the butt had to be to the right of her legs and therefore her right arm had to be to the right of her leg to be able to activate the trigger.  While watching the video of the demonstration of Howard using her toes to try to fire it occurred to me that the trajectory would be all wrong and then reminded me of what someone else had opined in the past.

There are 2 different angles in term of the trajectory.  The angle up and down which is what I always have considered.  But there is also the angle side to side. I never gave adequate consideration to the side to side angle before. I have to give props to whoever it was who identified this issue previously.
 

[Myster]

[Myster]

[Myster]

[John]

With the best will in the world, the only people who will know the answer to this will be the armed response team who first entered the master bedroom and in particular the officer who lifted the rifle and made it safe.  I have no doubt his first thoughts were, was the woman faking it and could shoot at them and not what exact position the rifle was in.  Remember too that it was moved a second or even a third time so that inspections and photos could be taken.  I fear the photos which are in the public domain showing the rifle laid out longitudinally along Sheila's body should be taken with a large pinch oif salt.

ps   like your Benny Hill avatar Myster.

[Myster]

ps   like your Benny Hill avatar Myster.

What do you mean Benny Hill!!?  That's a photo of me... before I was demoted. LOL!

[Myster]

I don't know who the tester was, but in this excerpt he states this was the first shot that tallies with the pathology report, which is wrong because the first one was fired with the rifle almost perpendicular to Sheila's neck (ten to twenty degrees). The bullet would have gone nowhere near the fourth neck vertebra had it been fired as in the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUk2bXEhYGw&feature=youtu.be&t=42s

[scipio_usmc]

With the best will in the world, the only people who will know the answer to this will be the armed response team who first entered the master bedroom and in particular the officer who lifted the rifle and made it safe.  I have no doubt his first thoughts were, was the woman faking it and could shoot at them and not what exact position the rifle was in.  Remember too that it was moved a second or even a third time so that inspections and photos could be taken.  I fear the photos which are in the public domain showing the rifle laid out longitudinally along Sheila's body should be taken with a large pinch oif salt.

ps   like your Benny Hill avatar Myster.

Jeremy supporters say it was moved multiple times police though say they didn't physically touch it until after the initial photos were taken. Woodcock said that after the initial photos were taken he physically moved it. No police other than him claim to have physically touched it prior to him doing so.  There is no need to physically touch it to make sure it is safe.  It is very easy to tell whether it is safe or not by looking through the vents. You can see the top of the magazine to see whether it is empty and also can see whether the bolt is open.  When a semi-auto pistol is empty the slide will lock back so the barrel will be sticking out.  You see that on TV very often. 

On a rifle such as the Anschutz when a casing is ejected and no round is left to be fed into the chamber the bolt locks open.  When locked open like so you know for sure it is empty and can't be fired:



This is how police made sure it was safe they didn't touch it.  Jeremy supporters make up that it was moved multiple times to try to pretend that the scene was disturbed by police. You will find though that Montgomery never claimed to have touched it physically as Jeremy supporters claim.

   

[scipio_usmc]

I don't know who the tester was, but in this excerpt he states this was the first shot that tallies with the pathology report, which is wrong because the first one was fired with the rifle almost perpendicular to Sheila's neck (ten to twenty degrees). The bullet would have gone nowhere near the fourth neck vertebra had it been fired as in the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUk2bXEhYGw&feature=youtu.be&t=42s

The testing was not in the least bit accurate because indeed the first shot was only a little short of a 90 degree angle but also because the gun was not directly in front of Sheila.  Both shots were to her right side not the center of her neck and the rifle was angled so that the shots went right to left which means the gun was angled towards her right not in between her legs.

I did some experiments holding a rifle to the side like that seated then falling back.  The rifle ended up between my armpit and next to my shoulder but never on me.  If it did stay on me the best it would do is have the very tip on my shoulder with the rest well to the right of me.

We already know that after Sheila died Jeremy dragged her flat.  The reason he did so was to place the gun across her body figuring that would help make it look like she killed herself.  In the process he revealed her body was moved and he also staged it wrong.


 

[Holly Goodhead]

The testing was not in the least bit accurate because indeed the first shot was only a little short of a 90 degree angle but also because the gun was not directly in front of Sheila.  Both shots were to her right side not the center of her neck and the rifle was angled so that the shots went right to left which means the gun was angled towards her right not in between her legs.

I did some experiments holding a rifle to the side like that seated then falling back.  The rifle ended up between my armpit and next to my shoulder but never on me.  If it did stay on me the best it would do is have the very tip on my shoulder with the rest well to the right of me.

We already know that after Sheila died Jeremy dragged her flat.  The reason he did so was to place the gun across her body figuring that would help make it look like she killed herself.  In the process he revealed her body was moved and he also staged it wrong.

This didn't form part of the prosecutions case at trial or appeal hearings. 

[david1819]

On a rifle such as the Anschutz when a casing is ejected and no round is left to be fed into the chamber the bolt locks open.  When locked open like so you know for sure it is empty and can't be fired:



This is how police made sure it was safe they didn't touch it.   

That side of the gun was facing downwards resting on her dress it would not be visible to the police hence your theory is wrong

This is how they would see the gun in that position

[Holly Goodhead]

This is quite a horrible thought but is it possible Crispy could have interfered with the victims and/or SoC eg bible, rifle, casings?  I have no experience of dogs so I have no idea what the poor little thing would do.  Would it (was Crispy a he or she?) be aware the victims were deceased, think they were sleeping or be oblivious? 

AE said Crispy jumped on her lap at JB's cottage so I'm wondering if it might have clambered on top of the rifle/SC?

Also while I'm on the subject of Crispy it appears he/she moved about ie from kitchen (tel op heard?) to bedroom but no evidence of paw prints in blood? 

And, this is a really horrible thought, but I believe June's legs had smears of blood on is it possible Crispy might have licked them? 

DI Cook (think it was him) said he put Crispy in the wardrobe as he didn't want him/her interfering with SoC but by this time potentially he/she had been roaming around unfettered for some 4 hours.

[Holly Goodhead]

In the past someone asserted that the butt of the rifle could not have landed on Sheila's legs if she had fired the fatal shot without the moderator attached.  I ignored it at the time it was made but that person was correct.  I don't remember who made the assertion it may have been John but may very well have been someone else.

Both shots to Sheila were fired not at the center of her neck and chin but rather the right side of her neck and chin.  The bullets did not go straight in rather the bullets went from right to left indicating the rifle was angled and being held to the right side facing towards the left.  Sheila's killer clearly was standing to the right of her.

In order for Sheila to have fired the fatal shot the butt of the rifle could not be above her legs but rather was angled to the right of her close to the ground and would have fallen on the ground not on her leg.  There is no conceivable way it could fall on her leg and yet be fired at the angle it was.



So if she had shot herself while lying down or even while seated and then fell back either the rifle would have been off her body entirely (because as you fall you actually pull away from the weapon) or at the most the very tip of the barrel would have been across her shoulder with the bulk of it on the floor like so:



Moreover, had she fired the gun then her right arm also would have been out to her right side not across her body.  It's impossible to achieve the right to left bullet trajectory with the gun directly in front of her body the butt had to be to the right of her legs and therefore her right arm had to be to the right of her leg to be able to activate the trigger.  While watching the video of the demonstration of Howard using her toes to try to fire it occurred to me that the trajectory would be all wrong and then reminded me of what someone else had opined in the past.

There are 2 different angles in term of the trajectory.  The angle up and down which is what I always have considered.  But there is also the angle side to side. I never gave adequate consideration to the side to side angle before. I have to give props to whoever it was who identified this issue previously.

I've always felt SC's location was odd but thinking about it now I wonder if Crispy was under the bed (this is where I believe he/she was found) that's what caused SC to be there.  It is said SC was an animal lover.  Crispy may have hidden under the bed as a result of all the noise outside and he/she wanted to be close to June.

I don't think an animal psychologist has ever given an opinion?

[scipio_usmc]

This didn't form part of the prosecutions case at trial or appeal hearings.

That doesn't man we should ignore it where we are searching for the truth.

It was not part of the trial because the experts missed it. It was part of the appeal hearing but the COA refused to consider it because they determined even though it is credible it was not new in the sense that it could not have been recognized at the time of the trial had they used due diligence.  It wasn't based on new science. There are 2 ways to view this

1) Jeremy already lost so it would add nothing to the equation to consider such evidence so they decided to make themselves look good by saying it didn't qualify as new but if the defense put on a stronger showing they actually would have considered it.

2) They genuinely decided to follow the law and not permit new evidence that the prosecution could have used had they used due diligence.

The legal significance is as follows:

If they had allowed it then:

The defense would need to refute the new evidence in addition to the evidence presented at trial in order to get the verdict overturned.

By refusing it:

The defense only needs to overcome the evidence presented at trial in order to get the verdict overturned and if overturned then the prosecution could use the new evidence at a new trial but would not be able to use to prevent the conviction from being overturned.

Also, even though they said they officially would not consider it that is still something that could be in the back of their minds and still find its way into their thinking regardless of what they claim.

[scipio_usmc]

That side of the gun was facing downwards resting on her dress it would not be visible to the police hence your theory is wrong

This is how they would see the gun in that position

Once again you demonstrate how poor your reading comprehension skills are.  I didn't claim they looked in the ejection port I stated that looking through the vents you can see that there is no bullet in the magazine and that the bolt is open.  I said that because the vents are what was facing up. I showed what it looks like with the bolt open and you can see the vents are on the opposite side.

While from a distance you can't see through the vents, looking up close at the vents you can easily look through them and see whether the bolt is closed or open and whether there is a bullet or not in the magazine. Looking through the vents and seeing Sheila's gown would make it quite clear the bolt was open.

When I use the words vents I meant vents.  When I use the word ejection port I mean ejection port. The words I choose actually are meant to accurately describe what I am referring to.  I deliberately choose my words.