The Identical WS's of PC Collins and PC Delgado

[Holly Goodhead]

Scipio posted part of PC Collins' WS yesterday (unavailable in the forum's library) and I noticed this part is identical to that of PC Delgado's.  Why?  Were they attempting to cover something up and colluding?  Or is it a case of 'copying homework'? 

"...Entering further into the bedroom I saw the body of a female aged about twenty five years.  The body was laying on its back.  I saw what appeared to be .22 rifle laying on top of the body with the end of the barrel near to the chin.  I saw that her right hand was near to the trigger of the rifle.  I saw injuries to the neck and chin and what appeared to be blood had run down each side of her mouth.  I formed the opinion that she was dead.  This person was dressed in a nightdress.  Near to her body I saw one spent cartridge case which appeared to be the calibre of a .22 and next to her body I saw an open bible.  We continued the search of the upstairs and on entering the childrens bedroom...."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=74

[Holly Goodhead]

Two photos exist of the main bedroom: one with the door to the box room half open the other closed.  Myster suggested the reason for this might have been to enable PC Bird to take a photo of SC from a different angle?  I assume Myster means by closing the door?

Was the door open or closed when the raid team entered the main bedroom? 

[Holly Goodhead]

I've read through the raid team stats AGAIN from this forums library and the only mention of the box room between the main bedroom and twins room appear to be the following:

PC Woodcock

"Having searched this room [main room] and a small lobby attached to it we moved across the landing into another bedroom which appeared to be Sheila BAMBER'S room".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

PC Hall

"I also saw a connecting door in the right hand corner of the room"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=156.0;attach=98

Pity they don't make it clear whether or not the door was open or closed when they entered the main bedroom.

I wonder why PC Collins and PC Delgado don't make any reference to the box room or connecting door?  I'm getting the feeling there's something not right here but I will need to read the raid team WS's AGAIN    They all had the benefit of JB's layout of WHF which surely they would ensure they could remember and visualise or at least those leading would?  Having identified SC with the rifle across her body it appears they then searched the adjoining box room.  Surely they would then open the door leading to the twins room but it appears from the WS's they left the main bedroom and searched SC's bedroom and then entered the twins room via the landing.  If this is accurate it makes no sense to me.  When they left the main bedroom they had no idea of the twins fate.  Surely the priority would be to prevent them potentially witnessing a horrific scene? 

Did members of the raid team move SC's body to gain access to the box room?   Or did members enter the main bedroom via the twins room and box room and when opening the door inadvertently moved SC's body?

[Holly Goodhead]

I've read through the raid team stats AGAIN from this forums library and the only mention of the box room between the main bedroom and twins room appear to be the following:

PC Woodcock

"Having searched this room [main room] and a small lobby attached to it we moved across the landing into another bedroom which appeared to be Sheila BAMBER'S room".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

PC Hall

"I also saw a connecting door in the right hand corner of the room"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=156.0;attach=98

Pity they don't make it clear whether or not the door was open or closed when they entered the main bedroom.

I wonder why PC Collins and PC Delgado don't make any reference to the box room or connecting door?  I'm getting the feeling there's something not right here but I will need to read the raid team WS's AGAIN    They all had the benefit of JB's layout of WHF which surely they would ensure they could remember and visualise or at least those leading would?  Having identified SC with the rifle across her body it appears they then searched the adjoining box room.  Surely they would then open the door leading to the twins room but it appears from the WS's they left the main bedroom and searched SC's bedroom and then entered the twins room via the landing.  If this is accurate it makes no sense to me.  When they left the main bedroom they had no idea of the twins fate.  Surely the priority would be to prevent them potentially witnessing a horrific scene? 

Did members of the raid team move SC's body to gain access to the box room?   Or did members enter the main bedroom via the twins room and box room and when opening the door inadvertently moved SC's body?

I think this is unlikely as it would surely have caused some bruising or other mark to the body and the pathologist didn't identify any.

[Myster]

Scipio posted part of PC Collins' WS yesterday (unavailable in the forum's library) and I noticed this part is identical to that of PC Delgado's.  Why?  Were they attempting to cover something up and colluding?  Or is it a case of 'copying homework'? 

"...Entering further into the bedroom I saw the body of a female aged about twenty five years.  The body was laying on its back.  I saw what appeared to be .22 rifle laying on top of the body with the end of the barrel near to the chin.  I saw that her right hand was near to the trigger of the rifle.  I saw injuries to the neck and chin and what appeared to be blood had run down each side of her mouth.  I formed the opinion that she was dead.  This person was dressed in a nightdress.  Near to her body I saw one spent cartridge case which appeared to be the calibre of a .22 and next to her body I saw an open bible.  We continued the search of the upstairs and on entering the childrens bedroom...."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=74

They probably wrote their witness statements together, seeing as they moved through WHF with each other as part of the TFU. Is there a law against it?

[Myster]

I think this is unlikely as it would surely have caused some bruising or other mark to the body and the pathologist didn't identify any.

Impossible, as there would be blood marks on the carpet from where she was pushed, and she was a dead weight, remember. They entered the main bedroom first and saw both bodies there without going through the box room from the twins' room. The box room might have been full of boxes anyway, i.e. junk, hindering their path.

[Holly Goodhead]

They probably wrote their witness statements together, seeing as they moved through WHF with each other as part of the TFU. Is there a law against it?

I've no idea what the training manual states about WS's eg 'own words' or what.   

PC Collins, Delgado and Manners all refer in general terms as to what happened after leaving the main bedroom eg continued searching upstairs, entered childrens room, search complete.

PC Woodcock is the most detailed he refers to searching the small lobby, then SC's room, finding JB's room locked and then entering the twins room.

Acting PS Manners refers to the search progressing and bodies of twins found.

[Holly Goodhead]

Impossible, as there would be blood marks on the carpet from where she was pushed, and she was a dead weight, remember. They entered the main bedroom first and saw both bodies there without going through the box room from the twins' room. The box room might have been full of boxes anyway, i.e. junk, hindering their path.

PC Woodcok makes reference to searching it but no reference to what was in it or the door the other side.  I guess a crime scene photo exists.  Surely someone would have stood guard on this door until the search was complete?

[scipio_usmc]

I think this is unlikely as it would surely have caused some bruising or other mark to the body and the pathologist didn't identify any.

Plus they would not want to disturb the body so if the body blocked the door they would not have gone in through that door in the first place.

If they had to move the body to get in they would have mentioned it.

The police spoke to each other when they were writing their statements.  But some of them went in the rooms different times than others and some never went in all the rooms or only went in part of the way so you will find not all of them saw the same things.

Statements are not all encompassing.  Police are supposed to mention things of significance that the investigators would need to know they are not supposed to be detailed records noting every tidbit.  That is thy there was a need for future clarification and further statements. Obviously the rooms they found bodies in were the most significant.

[Holly Goodhead]

Plus they would not want to disturb the body so if the body blocked the door they would not have gone in through that door in the first place.

If they had to move the body to get in they would have mentioned it.

The police spoke to each other when they were writing their statements.  But some of them went in the rooms different times than others and some never went in all the rooms or only went in part of the way so you will find not all of them saw the same things.

Statements are not all encompassing.  Police are supposed to mention things of significance that the investigators would need to know they are not supposed to be detailed records noting every tidbit.  That is thy there was a need for future clarification and further statements. Obviously the rooms they found bodies in were the most significant.

I was actually meaning that SC may have been preventing access to the main bedroom from the box room.  Meaning if officers approached the main bedroom via the box room they may have inadvertently moved SC's body but on reflection this seems very unlikely. 

I appreciate in theory officers would not move the body other than for essential reasons that they have noted eg lift hand to take photo of blood underneath.  But what happened in practice might have been different.  Eg as far as I can see none of the raid team have made reference to the blue socks.  Why?  Was SC's body covering them at some stage?  The blue socks were deemed important enough to seize as an exhibit and test for blood.  The raid team make reference to the casing(s) and bible but no refeference to the socks? 

[scipio_usmc]

I was actually meaning that SC may have been preventing access to the main bedroom from the box room.  Meaning if officers approached the main bedroom via the box room they may have inadvertently moved SC's body but on reflection this seems very unlikely. 

I appreciate in theory officers would not move the body other than for essential reasons that they have noted eg lift hand to take photo of blood underneath.  But what happened in practice might have been different.  Eg as far as I can see none of the raid team have made reference to the blue socks.  Why?  Was SC's body covering them at some stage?  The blue socks were deemed important enough to seize as an exhibit and test for blood.  The raid team make reference to the casing(s) and bible but no refeference to the socks?

They tested the socks to test their theory that June walked around the bed. They tested 2 swatches of carpet and the socks to trace her movement. The socks were insignificant for any other purpose and meaningless to the raid team. Guns, bodies bullets were the main thing the raid team cared about and were supposed to tell what they did.

Since they went int he master bedroom first and the boys later that obviously means they didn't pass through the boxroom to get to the master bedroom.  Her body is too far for the door to move anyway the table is in the way at most they could smack her head some.

[John]

Scipio posted part of PC Collins' WS yesterday (unavailable in the forum's library) and I noticed this part is identical to that of PC Delgado's.  Why?  Were they attempting to cover something up and colluding?  Or is it a case of 'copying homework'? 

"...Entering further into the bedroom I saw the body of a female aged about twenty five years.  The body was laying on its back.  I saw what appeared to be .22 rifle laying on top of the body with the end of the barrel near to the chin.  I saw that her right hand was near to the trigger of the rifle.  I saw injuries to the neck and chin and what appeared to be blood had run down each side of her mouth.  I formed the opinion that she was dead.  This person was dressed in a nightdress.  Near to her body I saw one spent cartridge case which appeared to be the calibre of a .22 and next to her body I saw an open bible.  We continued the search of the upstairs and on entering the childrens bedroom...."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=74

Police officers routinely compare notes to ensure completeness.  Conspiracists would call it something else but that is their prerogative.  When I was going through the police statements I did note the indistinguishable remarks.

[Holly Goodhead]

They tested the socks to test their theory that June walked around the bed. They tested 2 swatches of carpet and the socks to trace her movement. The socks were insignificant for any other purpose and meaningless to the raid team. Guns, bodies bullets were the main thing the raid team cared about and were supposed to tell what they did.

Since they went int he master bedroom first and the boys later that obviously means they didn't pass through the boxroom to get to the master bedroom.  Her body is too far for the door to move anyway the table is in the way at most they could smack her head some.

It would be a good idea to try and access a 1985 police training manual to see what is deemed relevant for a WS.  As a lay person I find it odd none of the raid team, as far as I can see, included the socks given their proximity to SC and the fact they had visible blood on.  I understand the reason they were seized and tested but this might not have been apparent to the raid team at the time when they were pre-occupied with making the house safe.  PC Woodcock makes reference to cosmetics and a box of tampons on SC's bed.  What relevance do these items have to anything? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251;image

[Holly Goodhead]

Police officers routinely compare notes to ensure completeness.  Conspiracists would call it something else but that is their prerogative.  When I was going through the police statements I did note the indistinguishable remarks.

Yes I agree you would expect them all to be similar since they are relaying the same event but at least part of PC Collins and Delgado's WS's are identical word-for-word.  I don't know what the process was for writing up the WS's eg straight back to the station, get them written up and then in for typing?  Of course it could be an admin error.

[scipio_usmc]

It would be a good idea to try and access a 1985 police training manual to see what is deemed relevant for a WS.  As a lay person I find it odd none of the raid team, as far as I can see, included the socks given their proximity to SC and the fact they had visible blood on.  I understand the reason they were seized and tested but this might not have been apparent to the raid team at the time when they were pre-occupied with making the house safe.  PC Woodcock makes reference to cosmetics and a box of tampons on SC's bed.  What relevance do these items have to anything? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251;image

You won't find it in any manual.  What is relevant and to include depends on the circumstances.  The people requesting the statement give the general requirements of what they want.  They were told to recount what they did and their interactions with Jeremy.  In later statements they were asked to address certain specific things.  A statement is for the benefit of the investigators so that they know who to consult for what. 

The first statement they took from Ann all they wanted was her to tell them about Sheila for instance.