Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!

[Alfred R Jones]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

You said earlier: "Given the amount of dead pig in landfill, is there any reason whatsoever to think Eddie would have found a body?"

Did you mean dead pigs or pork?

Eddie will apparently only alert to the former.  That being the case, the point you aseem to be trying to make is either 1) that Portuguese landfill sites do habitually contain pig carcasses and so any attempt to sniff out a body would be futile  or 2) that the pork products that are in the landfill would confuse the dog, the dog that apparently doesn't alert to cooked pig.  Do you understand now?

ETA: did I ever state that there were landfill sites composed entirely of ham sandwiches, or was that just a silly facetious comment on your part?

[Alfred R Jones]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

What is this thing that the police knew nothing of that you keep going on about, and why would it have prevented them considering the possibility that Madeleine's body had ended up on a landfill site? 

[Alfred R Jones]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

Would it have perhaps been a good idea for the police to put local landfill site sorters on high alert for the possible presence of a missing child's body amongst the garbage?  Any evidence that they did?

[Alice Purjorick]

The thread was about Sr Amaral.
It seems to have morphed into a waste management thread.

Check out:
Directive 1999/31/EC
This directive, of course, has to be enacted in each member state by the laws of those states.
Then it starts to get a bit complicated and unless you are an expert on waste disposal and how Portugal enacted the 1999 directive you are p*****g in the wind.

[Alfred R Jones]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

There is nothing fanciful about anything I have written.  The police should (IMO) at least have considered the possibility that Madeleine's body had ended up in the local landfill site and made some effort to ascertain if that's what happened.  If this is fanciful of me, well that's your opinion, and you are of course entitled to it, however I would point out that it is not at all beyond the bounds of possibility that her body did end up in landfill, and nor that it would have been impossible for anyone (especially the police) to recover it.

[Alfred R Jones]

The thread was about Sr Amaral.
It seems to have morphed into a waste management thread.

Check out:
Directive 1999/31/EC
This directive, of course, has to be enacted in each member state by the laws of those states.
Then it starts to get a bit complicated and unless you are an expert on waste disposal and how Portugal enacted the 1999 directive you are p*****g in the wind.

Thanks for your input, excellent as always.

[Alfred R Jones]

Another example

Police use sniffer dogs at landfill site to looking for missing baby

http://www.christianpost.com/news/zion-baby-police-use-sniffer-dogs-to-search-landfill-site-for-5-month-old-joshua-summeries-video-102969/

[Alfred R Jones]

Another landfill search with dogs, to find a murder weapon

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/2314413/Police-hunt-for-Martyn-Barclay-murder-weapon.html

[Alfred R Jones]

Another landfill site searched by police with dogs. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-21/qld-police-and-ses-to-sift-through-rubbish-in-search-for-body/5337590

[Alfred R Jones]

In 1973 dogs led police to the bodies of 2 boys rolled in a carpet buried in 20ft of garbage at the dump they were hidden in.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FLIFCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=police+use+dogs+to+search+rubbish+tip+for+body&source=bl&ots=9p9GAG6DKD&sig=6DVDQbC_sbk0APz2wwwKTBAWKrw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXhOzQiebKAhUFPxoKHUJKCIUQ6AEIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=police%20use%20dogs%20to%20search%20rubbish%20tip%20for%20body&f=false

[Alfred R Jones]

Amore recent example of police and dogs conducting a search of a rubbish dump in an attempt to find a missing man http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/74728305/Roigard-Murder-Trial-Scale-of-search-for-missing-man-outlined-in-court

Any more examples needed?  Perhaps we can now put to bed the idea that police searching a landfill site looking for a missing person is such a fanciful one after all...?

[ShiningInLuz]

I have seen it in print that British dogs were on offer but it is difficult to trace now.  For example the search engine throws up ...

The Eddie and Keela Searches/Videos - McCann Files
www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
The McCanns' First Interviews 25 May 2007 · McCanns' ...... British police dog handlers had offered expertise to Portuguese authorities in May. They were only  ...

When the link is followed I can find no mention of the offer made in May.


**Snip
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family’s holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.

A senior UK police source said: “It is an absolute scandal — time is fast running out for this little girl.

“These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.

“The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.

“You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance.”

The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.

But the source warned: “They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/230278/Maddie-hunt-Send-in-dogs.html

Thank you for this Brietta.

I am not overly keen on the source and the comment re a 28-day time frame does not appear to match up with what is claimed for Eddie and Keela.

However, on balance, it does appear that an offer of specialist dogs was made, one was quite possibly Keela, and the discussion of the offer is around 20 days after Madeleine disappeared, hence within May 2007.  Further, the wording suggests the offer was made a fair time before this 20-day-after point in time.

I am now wondering if 'superdogs' were offered, why Amaral chose not to deploy them at the time.  Put aside for a moment whether one thinks he was hunting the McCanns or on a wider mission statement.

I am not thinking about deploying them on the Barlavento landfill site.  I am thinking about why they were not deployed in apartment 5A to try to establish whether something more sinister than a disappearance had occurred there.

Do we know who Amaral's superior was?  I'd be interested to know if people at Amaral's level, AND ABOVE, were aware of the superdogs capability and the apparent offer to deploy them.

Now it's getting a bit complex.  Do we know if Leicestershire Police were aware these dogs could be deployed?  Was CEOP aware these dogs could be deployed?

Was no-one banging on Amaral's door to pass this information on?  Or was the banging occurring but being ignored?

Very interesting stuff, so my thanks again.

[ShiningInLuz]

Sundays are too short to reply to this perplexing post in full.  I do however wish you'd stop asking for cites for things I haven't said.  "If Portuguese police were unaware that cadaver dogs as a tool for finding human remains existed in 2007 then perhaps you could provide me with a cite for that" - do you see how absurd that request is?  It is the police's job to know about these things and even if they did have the resources instantly at their disposal to at least make attempts to secure them as soon as possible.   I will come back to the rest of your facetious post later.

I can indeed see why the part you have placed in quote marks is absurd, which I why I did not say it. You did.

You raised it for this first time in the post to which I am replying.  Why you are making up an absurd request, putting it in quote marks, then saying the request is absurd appears to have no relevance to anything, so I'll leave you to your absurdity puzzle.

Your missing a not, as in´'did not have the resources instantly at their disposal', but I would guess most people got the gist of that part.

[Eleanor]

That's enough, you two.  Thank You.

[ShiningInLuz]

You asked for an example of dogs searching landfill sites for bodies.  Here is one from 2012.  I hope it will be acceptable to you:

http://www.dailybreeze.com/article/ZZ/20120508/NEWS/120509374

Thank you for this.  It provides a starting point that I did not have before.

At the moment, it does not say whether the planned deployment was successful.  By successful, I do not mean the bodies were found, I simply mean whether the dogs were able to work 'professionally' in such an environment.

It also appears to give an indication of the difficulty in searching a landfill site, and the resources required for such a search.

I wonder if I can work this up into the resources that would have been needed to search Barlavento?

Jolly good stuff, thank you again.