Wandering Off Topic

[Sunny]

I can't even remember what I accused you of saying but I apologise for whatever it was which offended you.
Thank you for posting that. It confirms that Grime was only a recognised expert in the UK - no mention of the FBI or any other international accreditation.

Perhaps you didn't read all of my link - from my link posted earlier.

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.

I would say that the FBI Canine Program Manager was praising Martin Grime and his dogs there. So clearly highly regarded in the US and by the FBI Canine Program Manager no less.  IMO

[misty]

Perhaps you didn't read all of my link - from my link posted earlier.

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial.

I would say that the FBI Canine Program Manager was praising Martin Grime and his dogs there. So clearly highly regarded in the US and by the FBI Canine Program Manager no less.  IMO

I would say that the recently appointed manager Stockham (RIP) testified that Grime & his dogs were fit for purpose based on FBI testing - no mention of being expert/internationally acclaimed/enhanced/unique. The article also stated that training records were submitted into evidence.
Furthermore, the Lane trial was 5 years post-Luz & didn't involve Eddie.

[sadie]

Have the McCanns in any interview proclaimed they came in contact with pig cadaver? AND did they spread this odour in 'certain' parts of the apartment and car? I mean if you had a dead pig would you not want to bag it and freeze it? or bury it underground to have a hog roast? hiding it in a bedroom cupboard seems a bit strange to me IMO.

If anyone had used Pig cadavar odour, it certainly wouldn't have been The Mccanns ... pointing at themselves? IMO The most likely people would be the PJ, or someome trying to make it look as tho' Madeleine had been killed in the apartment.
And it could be something as innocent as someone having been in contact with something that had been in close contact with a cadavar or even its odour ?

Or even as misty wonders, be someone who keeps pigs and slaughters them at home handling the carcase to butcher it?



To remind you of the sequence of posts :

I would accept "The dogs are trained to alert to cadaver odour and to dried human blood"

And my responce

And Eddie was trained on pig cadavar, so please add that.

Any training that a dog has had cannot be untrained.  Loads about this in a previious thread

IMO, it would be better to accept:

"The dogs are trained to alert to human cadaver odour, dried human blood and to PIG cadaver."

No way would the Mccanns have spread pig cadavar odour to indict themselves.

[sadie]

And what about all the other tenants that used the 5A apartment before and after the incident?  Did any of them have dealings with a deceased pig?

And how about the ashes and pyjamas of Tasmin Silences grandpa?   

Were they stored in the ONLY place that might have any revelence to a cadaver?  There was ONLY ONE POTENTIALLY RELEVANT PLACE and that was by the wall adjacent to the headboard of the bed ... in just the place that a grieving elderly widow might have kept the ashes / his pyjamas  for comfort, on a bedside table near her head as she lay in bed.. 

If placed on a bedside table there, they would have been at exactly the right spot for Eddies alert.



IMO, there was never any cadaver in 5A.  It was all, at best, a misunderstanding on Amarals part and a huge internet myth has been developed around it by a certain group of people.    I wonder why?

[Robittybob1]

And how about the ashes and pyjamas of Tasmin Silences grandpa?   

Were they stored in the ONLY place that might have any revelence to a cadaver?  There was ONLY ONE POTENTIALLY RELEVANT PLACE and that was by the wall adjacent to the headboard of the bed ... in just the place that a grieving elderly widow might have kept the ashes / his pyjamas  for comfort, on a bedside table near her head as she lay in bed.. 

If placed on a bedside table there, they would have been at exactly the right spot for Eddies alert.



IMO, there was never any cadaver in 5A.  It was all, at best, a misunderstanding on Amarals part and a huge internet myth has been developed around it by a certain group of people.    I wonder why?

You like arguing don't you!  I have never accepted that the ashes coming back from a crematorium would illicit an alert from a cadaver dog.  I know you will say cadaver dogs are used to recover bodies after a fire, but I'm certain that those bodies won't be reduced to ash in most of these situations.

[Sunny]

I would say that the recently appointed manager Stockham (RIP) testified that Grime & his dogs were fit for purpose based on FBI testing - no mention of being expert/internationally acclaimed/enhanced/unique. The article also stated that training records were submitted into evidence.
Furthermore, the Lane trial was 5 years post-Luz & didn't involve Eddie.

There you go with that internationally acclaimed phrase again. I have never said it apart from in response to you saying it to me.   I didn't say either that Eddie was involved all I mentioned was that Grime was highly thought of by Stockham.  Did you notice this bit

Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range

So Grimes dogs at that time had an accuracy rating in the high 90% range.

I have said that Grime is a professional several times and I believe he was back in 2007 too as he was prior


British dog helps Irish Police and FBI
A SNIFFER dog that helped detectives jail evil killer Trevor Hamilton has just returned from assisting the FBI with a murder probe in America.

Six-year-old English Springer spaniel Eddie's career took off internationally shortly after he returned to Northern Ireland for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.

Eddie helped police nail Hamilton after the victim-recovery dog found blood from Attracta Harron (63) on a mat from Hamilton's burnt-out Hyundai car. Hamilton burned the car the same day that he murdered the retired librarian.

Eddie was drafted in from the UK with his handler to assist in the search for Ms Arkinson’s body. It was Eddie who found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.

Martin Grime, Eddie's handler at the Dog Unit attached to South Yorkshire Police Station, told how he has recently returned to Tyrone to search for Arlene (15).

She went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, 12 years ago on August 13 1994. Police have recently been concentrating their search in her native Castlederg in Tyrone, where it is thought she was murdered.

Forensic

Mr Grime said: ‘We were over earlier this year and three times in total since the Attracta Harron case. During that investigation we came over for a week and on the last day, before we came back to the UK, we decided we would search the car. The stuff Eddie found was then taken away for forensic examination.

‘Then when a search area was identified Eddie found the body as well. As far as the Arlene case goes, however, there has been nothing to date.’

Eddie has just returned from the US where he has been helping the FBI in a murder case.

Mr Grime said: ‘Dogs like Eddie are very, very good at what they do and he has lots of operational experience. I do some training with him every day.’

Hamilton (23) received Ulster's longest prison sentence after he was jailed for life for the murder of Mrs Harron.


https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/August2006/News250806/brit.htm

So Eddie was finding bodies and evidence of bodies prior to 2007.  This is all so sad reading of other peoples deaths but at least partially thanks to Eddie and Martin Grime the guilty murders were jailed.

[slartibartfast]

And how about the ashes and pyjamas of Tasmin Silences grandpa?   

Were they stored in the ONLY place that might have any revelence to a cadaver?  There was ONLY ONE POTENTIALLY RELEVANT PLACE and that was by the wall adjacent to the headboard of the bed ... in just the place that a grieving elderly widow might have kept the ashes / his pyjamas  for comfort, on a bedside table near her head as she lay in bed.. 

If placed on a bedside table there, they would have been at exactly the right spot for Eddies alert.



IMO, there was never any cadaver in 5A.  It was all, at best, a misunderstanding on Amarals part and a huge internet myth has been developed around it by a certain group of people.    I wonder why?

Moderator: You have previously stated this without providing a cite please provide one or it will be removed

[Mr Gray]

There you go with that internationally acclaimed phrase again. I have never said it apart from in response to you saying it to me.   I didn't say either that Eddie was involved all I mentioned was that Grime was highly thought of by Stockham.  Did you notice this bit

Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range

So Grimes dogs at that time had an accuracy rating in the high 90% range.

I have said that Grime is a professional several times and I believe he was back in 2007 too as he was prior


British dog helps Irish Police and FBI
A SNIFFER dog that helped detectives jail evil killer Trevor Hamilton has just returned from assisting the FBI with a murder probe in America.

Six-year-old English Springer spaniel Eddie's career took off internationally shortly after he returned to Northern Ireland for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.

Eddie helped police nail Hamilton after the victim-recovery dog found blood from Attracta Harron (63) on a mat from Hamilton's burnt-out Hyundai car. Hamilton burned the car the same day that he murdered the retired librarian.

Eddie was drafted in from the UK with his handler to assist in the search for Ms Arkinson’s body. It was Eddie who found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.

Martin Grime, Eddie's handler at the Dog Unit attached to South Yorkshire Police Station, told how he has recently returned to Tyrone to search for Arlene (15).

She went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, 12 years ago on August 13 1994. Police have recently been concentrating their search in her native Castlederg in Tyrone, where it is thought she was murdered.

Forensic

Mr Grime said: ‘We were over earlier this year and three times in total since the Attracta Harron case. During that investigation we came over for a week and on the last day, before we came back to the UK, we decided we would search the car. The stuff Eddie found was then taken away for forensic examination.

‘Then when a search area was identified Eddie found the body as well. As far as the Arlene case goes, however, there has been nothing to date.’

Eddie has just returned from the US where he has been helping the FBI in a murder case.

Mr Grime said: ‘Dogs like Eddie are very, very good at what they do and he has lots of operational experience. I do some training with him every day.’

Hamilton (23) received Ulster's longest prison sentence after he was jailed for life for the murder of Mrs Harron.


https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/August2006/News250806/brit.htm

So Eddie was finding bodies and evidence of bodies prior to 2007.  This is all so sad reading of other peoples deaths but at least partially thanks to Eddie and Martin Grime the guilty murders were jailed.

What do you understand by an accuracy rating of 90%...i think you misunderstand what it means... I  think some think this means every alert by eddie is 90% accurate but Im quite sure that is not what it means,...could you also tell us what bodeis eddie ahs found...as I understand...on his own...its one...

[Robittybob1]

What do you understand by an accuracy rating of 90%...i think you misunderstand what it means... I  think some think this means every alert by eddie is 90% accurate but Im quite sure that is not what it means,...could you also tell us what bodeis eddie ahs found...as I understand...on his own...its one...

I think that accuracy rate is assessed during Eddie's training runs and it was found that on average 1 in every 10 training runs Eddie would alert at places where the  training sample had not been placed or he went past the place where the training sample had been placed and he didn't bark.

False positives and false negatives.

[slartibartfast]

What do you understand by an accuracy rating of 90%...i think you misunderstand what it means... I  think some think this means every alert by eddie is 90% accurate but Im quite sure that is not what it means,...could you also tell us what bodeis eddie ahs found...as I understand...on his own...its one...

It says high 90% range which I take to mean somewhere around 97% or 98% accurate.

[Robittybob1]

It says high 90% range which I take to mean somewhere around 97% or 98% accurate.

It could be that or if the rating was over 90% it was considered "high". 

[Mr Gray]

It says high 90% range which I take to mean somewhere around 97% or 98% accurate.

Accurate at what... What did the test the test involve... How much relevance does that test have to PDL.. Or Jersey..
Are posters, assuming from this statement that every alert Eddie  made in pdl was 90 plus accurate... I would say that's absurd

[Robittybob1]

Accurate at what... What did the test the test involve... How much relevance does that test have to PDL.. Or Jersey..
Are posters, assuming from this statement that every alert Eddie  made in pdl was 90 plus accurate... I would say that's absurd

Did you see my answer?  "I think that accuracy rate is assessed during Eddie's training runs and it was found that on average 1 in every 10 training runs Eddie would alert at places where the  training sample had not been placed or he went past the place where the training sample had been placed and he didn't bark.

Resulting in both false positives and false negatives."

[Mr Gray]

Did you see my answer?  "I think that accuracy rate is assessed during Eddie's training runs and it was found that on average 1 in every 10 training runs Eddie would alert at places where the  training sample had not been placed or he went past the place where the training sample had been placed and he didn't bark.

Resulting in both false positives and false negatives."

I'm interested in whether  posters, think eddies alerts in pdl on the whole were 90 accurate  ...this belief is what I think results in an incorrect belief in the value of the alerts

[Brietta]

You like arguing don't you!  I have never accepted that the ashes coming back from a crematorium would illicit an alert from a cadaver dog.  I know you will say cadaver dogs are used to recover bodies after a fire, but I'm certain that those bodies won't be reduced to ash in most of these situations.

Information regarding dogs alerting to scattered cremation remains can be found in OPERATION RECTANGLE SUMMARY REPORT as follows.

SNIP
The EVRD was deployed in a wide area screening sweep of the site. The following alert indications were forthcoming:

VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.


Therefore it is categorically stated by Martin Grime that an alert which was "within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire" was made as a result of there being the presence of the scattered ashes resulting from cremation.