Wandering Off Topic

[John]

Some posts have been unnecessarily aggressive and combative recently which is not conducive to constructive debate. By all means promote opinion and explore theories as long as such are based on facts and accepted understanding.

Finally, please keep posts amicable and informative at all times. TY.

[Vertigo Swirl]

That's obviously IYO, so you might care to amend your post to that effect.

As there are no cites in your blog it is ONLY YOUR OPINION.  Right? 
Now, do you think Martin Grime is wrong when he writes:

“Canine olfaction is far more sensitive and discriminatory than that of humans”

http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf

[Brietta]

Then it can't be known at what stage of decomposition a dog alerted to the cadaver then can it.

I think dogs can probably tell what stage of decomposition a cadaver is at.  Mine reacts differently to dead birds or fish she finds on the beach.

She either does a stiff legged waltz around if the carcass is fresh ... approaching then retreating, but never touching; or there is nothing like a good roll if it is smelly enough; or she paws it then pees on it: if there is nothing left she will roll in the place it was lying. 

She never combines these reactions, each one is individual and from observation I think each one is prompted by the condition of what she is smelling whether fresh, mummified or in bits.

[G-Unit]

I think dogs can probably tell what stage of decomposition a cadaver is at.  Mine reacts differently to dead birds or fish she finds on the beach.

She either does a stiff legged waltz around if the carcass is fresh ... approaching then retreating, but never touching; or there is nothing like a good roll if it is smelly enough; or she paws it then pees on it: if there is nothing left she will roll in the place it was lying. 

She never combines these reactions, each one is individual and from observation I think each one is prompted by the condition of what she is smelling whether fresh, mummified or in bits.

They also roll in poo. Nobody really knows why dogs like rolling in nasty smelling things, but all dogs do it.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170608-the-many-reasons-why-dogs-might-roll-in-smelly-poo

[ShiningInLuz]

As there are no cites in your blog it is ONLY YOUR OPINION.  Right? 
Now, do you think Martin Grime is wrong when he writes:

“Canine olfaction is far more sensitive and discriminatory than that of humans”

http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf

Yes.

Vanessa Mae.

What is the sound of a dead horse being flogged?

[Eleanor]

They also roll in poo. Nobody really knows why dogs like rolling in nasty smelling things, but all dogs do it.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170608-the-many-reasons-why-dogs-might-roll-in-smelly-poo

My ghastly Dachshund only rolls on dead bodies.  He isn't fussy about which.

[ShiningInLuz]

I think dogs can probably tell what stage of decomposition a cadaver is at.  Mine reacts differently to dead birds or fish she finds on the beach.

She either does a stiff legged waltz around if the carcass is fresh ... approaching then retreating, but never touching; or there is nothing like a good roll if it is smelly enough; or she paws it then pees on it: if there is nothing left she will roll in the place it was lying. 

She never combines these reactions, each one is individual and from observation I think each one is prompted by the condition of what she is smelling whether fresh, mummified or in bits.

Now that is a quite interesting food for thought.   

[barrier]

I think dogs can probably tell what stage of decomposition a cadaver is at.  Mine reacts differently to dead birds or fish she finds on the beach.

She either does a stiff legged waltz around if the carcass is fresh ... approaching then retreating, but never touching; or there is nothing like a good roll if it is smelly enough; or she paws it then pees on it: if there is nothing left she will roll in the place it was lying. 

She never combines these reactions, each one is individual and from observation I think each one is prompted by the condition of what she is smelling whether fresh, mummified or in bits.

But if say a body is found in a particular place a dog will never tell you where it died where as a human might not be able to as well,but a post mortem will determine if the death occurred in situ or the body was moved post mortem.

[Brietta]

Now that is a quite interesting food for thought.   

On rereading ... the only time she is vocal is when she encounters the 'fresh' remains she circles.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Yes.

Vanessa Mae.

What is the sound of a dead horse being flogged?

So in your opinion Martin Grime the dog handler is wrong and some bird you keep referring to called Vanessa Mae (the classical violinist?) but whom you refuse to provide any cites for is correct about dogs and humans olfactory abilities.  Do you have any idea how foolish you are appearing to the “guests” who read this forum and to your fellow forum members?   

[Vertigo Swirl]

For SIL.  Perhaps he could re-write it for Wikipedia so that it accurately explains his belief that dogs have no better sense if smell than humans:

While the human brain is dominated by a large visual cortex, the dog brain is dominated by a large olfactory cortex.[23] Dogs have roughly forty times more smell-sensitive receptors than humans, ranging from about 125 million to nearly 300 million in some dog breeds, such as bloodhounds.[23] This is thought to make its sense of smell up to 40 times more sensitive than human's.[38]:246 These receptors are spread over an area about the size of a pocket handkerchief (compared to 5 million over an area the size of a postage stamp for humans).[39][40] Dogs' sense of smell also includes the use of the vomeronasal organ, which is used primarily for social interactions.

The dog has mobile nostrils that help it determine the direction of the scent. Unlike humans, the dog does not need to fill up his lungs as he continuously brings the odor into his nose in bursts of 3-7 sniffs. The dog's nose has a bony structure inside that humans don't have, which allows the air that has been sniffed to pass over a bony shelf and many odor molecules stick to it. The air above this shelf is not washed out when the dog breathes normally, so the scent molecules accumulate in the nasal chambers and the scent builds with intensity, allowing the dog to detect the faintest of odors.[38]:247

One study into the learning ability of dogs compared to wolves indicated that dogs have a better sense of smell than wolves when locating hidden food, but there has yet been no experimental data to support this view.[41]

The wet nose, or rhinarium, is essential for determining the direction of the air current containing the smell. Cold receptors in the skin are sensitive to the cooling of the skin by evaporation of the moisture by air currents.[42]

[ShiningInLuz]

On rereading ... the only time she is vocal is when she encounters the 'fresh' remains she circles.

OK, perhaps I was not clear enough the first time, so let me have a second bite at the cherry.

It appears that human cadavers normally go through 5 distinct stages of decomposition.  I'm talking about bodies buried in shallow graves etc., not those sent to undertakers.  Think CSI type cadavers and cadaver dogs.

Here's my sanity check.  How does a handler train a dog to recognise 5 different stages of human decomposition, each giving off a different smell?  Without a body farm, that is one tough challenge.

So the fact that your dog reacts differently to different stages of decomposition in a dead fish is interesting.  I don't really have access to an intact, whole dead fish, nor a beach.  So I'm not sure if I can replicate your findings.  But it is an extremely interesting thought.

Equally, I have no evidence as to the issue of fish decomposition v human decomposition.


PS.  I reckon your dog is a cadaver dog.  What's her name?

 

[Mr Gray]

I think sils confusing scent and smell...

[ShiningInLuz]

So in your opinion Martin Grime the dog handler is wrong and some bird you keep referring to called Vanessa Mae (the classical violinist?) but whom you refuse to provide any cites for is correct about dogs and humans olfactory abilities.  Do you have any idea how foolish you are appearing to the “guests” who read this forum and to your fellow forum members?   

Do you remember going to my blog, cherry picking a copy and paste, and posting it on here?

Forum rules do not require that I give a cite for your post.  That is called a no-brainer.

Guests on here can go to my blog and decide for themselves.  Equally, they can comment on my blog, whether they agree or disagree with my article.  From memory, Anne Guedes, one of my magnificent six, disagreed.  Her comment still stands.

Parting comment.  Vanessa Mae.

[ShiningInLuz]

For SIL.  Perhaps he could re-write it for Wikipedia so that it accurately explains his belief that dogs have no better sense if smell than humans:

While the human brain is dominated by a large visual cortex, the dog brain is dominated by a large olfactory cortex.[23] Dogs have roughly forty times more smell-sensitive receptors than humans, ranging from about 125 million to nearly 300 million in some dog breeds, such as bloodhounds.[23] This is thought to make its sense of smell up to 40 times more sensitive than human's.[38]:246 These receptors are spread over an area about the size of a pocket handkerchief (compared to 5 million over an area the size of a postage stamp for humans).[39][40] Dogs' sense of smell also includes the use of the vomeronasal organ, which is used primarily for social interactions.

The dog has mobile nostrils that help it determine the direction of the scent. Unlike humans, the dog does not need to fill up his lungs as he continuously brings the odor into his nose in bursts of 3-7 sniffs. The dog's nose has a bony structure inside that humans don't have, which allows the air that has been sniffed to pass over a bony shelf and many odor molecules stick to it. The air above this shelf is not washed out when the dog breathes normally, so the scent molecules accumulate in the nasal chambers and the scent builds with intensity, allowing the dog to detect the faintest of odors.[38]:247

One study into the learning ability of dogs compared to wolves indicated that dogs have a better sense of smell than wolves when locating hidden food, but there has yet been no experimental data to support this view.[41]

The wet nose, or rhinarium, is essential for determining the direction of the air current containing the smell. Cold receptors in the skin are sensitive to the cooling of the skin by evaporation of the moisture by air currents.[42]

I don't feel the inclination to rewrite anything in Wikipedia.

Do you know what a 'large olfactory cortex' means?

Vanessa Mae.