Wandering Off Topic

[Eleanor]

'Human bone' at centre of Jersey children's home inquiry is actually a piece of wood or coconut shell
By DAVID ROSE
Last updated at 23:26 18 May 2008

The "remains of a child" discovered by police investigating allegations of abuse at a former children's home on Jersey is really a small piece of wood or broken coconut shell, The Mail on Sunday has learned.

The discovery of the fragment in February prompted police to open an inquiry into a possible murder at the Haut de la Garenne home; and this week detectives are set to announce further evidence which they believe shows that another two dead children were buried in the cellar.

But Jersey police were told almost six weeks ago that tests by Britain's top carbon-dating laboratory showed that the original evidence – supposedly a fragment of a child's skull – was not bone.

The island's controversial deputy police chief, Lenny Harper, who is heading the investigation, has consistently failed to mention the vital results in public statements since the tests were completed.

Interviewed in the home last Tuesday, he repeated: "It is a fragment of a human body...we don't know how, when or where that person died."

Last night Mr Harper admitted that his team had received emails reporting the test results on April 8, including a message that stated: "This one ain't bone."

But he insisted that had "never seen" a letter setting out the findings in more detail, which was addressed to him personally and dated May 1, until it was emailed to him yesterday.

Mr Harper also conceded that "clothing and other items" which he previously said had been found at the home – fuelling speculation that a child's grave had been unearthed – amounted to a piece of a button and a leather toggle.

However, he said he remained confident that the fragment was bone, based on the opinion of his forensic anthropologist, Julie Roberts, even though she had not been able to carry out detailed tests.

"As far as I am concerned, it was diagnosed as bone, and bone it remains," he said.

Scientists from the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit spent weeks investigating the fragment with the world's most sophisticated equipment, whereas Ms Roberts had to reach her conclusion in a hurry – between the fragment's discovery at 9.30am on February 24 and Mr Harper's Press conference that afternoon.
____________________________________________________________________________________

His murder inquiry began when Eddie, an "enhanced victim recovery dog", began barking in the cellar of Haut de la Garenne – the sign, according to its handler, that he had detected the scent of human remains.

By coincidence, the dog, from South Yorkshire Police, is the same animal that supposedly picked up "the scent of death" in the apartment where Madeleine McCann was last seen in Praia de Luz in Portugal.

According to Mr Harper, Eddie smelled the decades-old skull fragment through "several inches" of concrete, which police then smashed through. Eddie had the same reaction at another six locations at Haut de la Garenne but nothing was ever found.

"I don't believe a dog can pick up such a scent through a layer of concrete," said Mike Swindells, a former Lancashire officer who wrote the standard sniffer dog training manual.

"It's really very unlikely."

In his early media briefings, Mr Harper did not make clear that the first "human remains" consisted only of a single fragment the size of a 50p piece. Doubts were cast over the evidence when it first arrived at the Oxford lab early in March.

The first step in dating remains is to treat the bone with chemicals that separate its soft collagen protein from the harder mineral content. Only the collagen can be dated reliably.

However, the pre-treatment did not produce any collagen. The conclusion was unavoidable: the fragment was not bone.

At the time, a police Press statement admitted scientists had been unable to date the fragment because its collagen content was low. But Mr Harper said this was because it had been found in a "lime-rich environment", to which Ms Coupland added:

"The experts who tested it said that was why the collagen had degraded."

In fact, the Oxford scientists and Dr Jacobi say the opposite is true. "If it had been kept in a temperate, lime-rich environment and was actually bone, it would have been well preserved," Dr Jacobi said.

"It would very clearly be bone, which this is not.

"The Oxford scientist who did the pre-treatment has tested thousands of pieces of bone and she felt instinctively from the outset that this was not bone. She was right."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-567013/Human-bone-centre-Jersey-childrens-home-inquiry-actually-piece-wood-coconut-shell.html

And for this Martin Grime was paid 96 Thousand Pounds.  A good one if you can get it.

No wonder Martin Grime doesn't want to talk about it.

[G-Unit]

'Human bone' at centre of Jersey children's home inquiry is actually a piece of wood or coconut shell
By DAVID ROSE
Last updated at 23:26 18 May 2008

The "remains of a child" discovered by police investigating allegations of abuse at a former children's home on Jersey is really a small piece of wood or broken coconut shell, The Mail on Sunday has learned.

The discovery of the fragment in February prompted police to open an inquiry into a possible murder at the Haut de la Garenne home; and this week detectives are set to announce further evidence which they believe shows that another two dead children were buried in the cellar.

But Jersey police were told almost six weeks ago that tests by Britain's top carbon-dating laboratory showed that the original evidence – supposedly a fragment of a child's skull – was not bone.

The island's controversial deputy police chief, Lenny Harper, who is heading the investigation, has consistently failed to mention the vital results in public statements since the tests were completed.

Interviewed in the home last Tuesday, he repeated: "It is a fragment of a human body...we don't know how, when or where that person died."

Last night Mr Harper admitted that his team had received emails reporting the test results on April 8, including a message that stated: "This one ain't bone."

But he insisted that had "never seen" a letter setting out the findings in more detail, which was addressed to him personally and dated May 1, until it was emailed to him yesterday.

Mr Harper also conceded that "clothing and other items" which he previously said had been found at the home – fuelling speculation that a child's grave had been unearthed – amounted to a piece of a button and a leather toggle.

However, he said he remained confident that the fragment was bone, based on the opinion of his forensic anthropologist, Julie Roberts, even though she had not been able to carry out detailed tests.

"As far as I am concerned, it was diagnosed as bone, and bone it remains," he said.

Scientists from the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit spent weeks investigating the fragment with the world's most sophisticated equipment, whereas Ms Roberts had to reach her conclusion in a hurry – between the fragment's discovery at 9.30am on February 24 and Mr Harper's Press conference that afternoon.
____________________________________________________________________________________

His murder inquiry began when Eddie, an "enhanced victim recovery dog", began barking in the cellar of Haut de la Garenne – the sign, according to its handler, that he had detected the scent of human remains.

By coincidence, the dog, from South Yorkshire Police, is the same animal that supposedly picked up "the scent of death" in the apartment where Madeleine McCann was last seen in Praia de Luz in Portugal.

According to Mr Harper, Eddie smelled the decades-old skull fragment through "several inches" of concrete, which police then smashed through. Eddie had the same reaction at another six locations at Haut de la Garenne but nothing was ever found.

"I don't believe a dog can pick up such a scent through a layer of concrete," said Mike Swindells, a former Lancashire officer who wrote the standard sniffer dog training manual.

"It's really very unlikely."

In his early media briefings, Mr Harper did not make clear that the first "human remains" consisted only of a single fragment the size of a 50p piece. Doubts were cast over the evidence when it first arrived at the Oxford lab early in March.

The first step in dating remains is to treat the bone with chemicals that separate its soft collagen protein from the harder mineral content. Only the collagen can be dated reliably.

However, the pre-treatment did not produce any collagen. The conclusion was unavoidable: the fragment was not bone.

At the time, a police Press statement admitted scientists had been unable to date the fragment because its collagen content was low. But Mr Harper said this was because it had been found in a "lime-rich environment", to which Ms Coupland added:

"The experts who tested it said that was why the collagen had degraded."

In fact, the Oxford scientists and Dr Jacobi say the opposite is true. "If it had been kept in a temperate, lime-rich environment and was actually bone, it would have been well preserved," Dr Jacobi said.

"It would very clearly be bone, which this is not.

"The Oxford scientist who did the pre-treatment has tested thousands of pieces of bone and she felt instinctively from the outset that this was not bone. She was right."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-567013/Human-bone-centre-Jersey-childrens-home-inquiry-actually-piece-wood-coconut-shell.html

So Eddie alerted in a cellar. The police dug there and found something which a forensic anthropologist thought might be bone. I can see no evidence that the fragment was what triggered Eddie's alert, I see only assumptions by others.

[Eleanor]

So Eddie alerted in a cellar. The police dug there and found something which a forensic anthropologist thought might be bone. I can see no evidence that the fragment was what triggered Eddie's alert, I see only assumptions by others.

So that was it that triggered this apparent Alert, since nothing else was found and no children had gone missing?

Not that I expect a reply.

[John]

So Eddie alerted in a cellar. The police dug there and found something which a forensic anthropologist thought might be bone. I can see no evidence that the fragment was what triggered Eddie's alert, I see only assumptions by others.

That's very true, scent cannot be seen by the naked eye.

[Eleanor]

That's very true, scent cannot be seen by the naked eye.

That's a good excuse as no one knows if there is one.  Mayhap there wasn't.

[Mr Gray]

So Eddie alerted in a cellar. The police dug there and found something which a forensic anthropologist thought might be bone. I can see no evidence that the fragment was what triggered Eddie's alert, I see only assumptions by others.

You are wrong again.. No assumptions
Grime took the coconut to another location and tested it again. Once again Eddie gave a positive alert

Eddie alerted to a coconut... Fact

[misty]

I think it's also worth noting that one Grime's dogs, presumably Keela, also alerted to a bath located under the floor area at Haut de la Garenne. A presumptive forensic test indicated the presence of blood but, after further tests were carried out, no blood was found.

https://jersey.police.uk/news-appeals/2008/november/press-conference-notes-from-operation-rectangle-update/
*snipped*
The Bath and blood stains:

This bath in the under floor voids has no water supply and has not been used as a bath since the 1920's when a brick pillar was constructed within it. During the search a specialist search dog reacted to the bath and a presumptive test indicated positive for blood in a minute area of the bath.  Following detailed forensic microscopic examination no blood has been found.  There is nothing suspicious about the bath and no indication this bath has been used in the commission of any offences.
_______________________________________________________

Due to the age of the bath, it's not unreasonable to assume it was made of cast iron. Luminol reacts to rust. Rust is Iron Oxide and one form of Iron Oxide can be found in blood. Would such an alert by Keela be classed as a false positive for blood or an alert within her training parameters?

*snipped*
"Luminol can also react with substances like bleach, rust, fizzy drink and coffee, causing it to produce false positives."

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19722-blood-camera-to-spot-invisible-stains-at-crime-scenes/#ixzz6xNz1uKWV

It's worth pointing out that LGC Forensic costs invoiced to SOJ police were £453,000.
https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20Operation%20Rectangle%20review%20of%20the%20efficient%20and%20effective%20use%20of%20resources%20201005%20BDO%20Alto.pdf   (page 43 of document)

[Vertigo Swirl]

Some people are prepared to believe in extremely unlikely scenarios rather than accepting the most probable explanations. Eddie was never shown to alert to coconuts imo.

What is the most probable explanation in your opinion and upon what do you base your belief?

[Eleanor]

I think it's also worth noting that one Grime's dogs, presumably Keela, also alerted to a bath located under the floor area at Haut de la Garenne. A presumptive forensic test indicated the presence of blood but, after further tests were carried out, no blood was found.

https://jersey.police.uk/news-appeals/2008/november/press-conference-notes-from-operation-rectangle-update/
*snipped*
The Bath and blood stains:

This bath in the under floor voids has no water supply and has not been used as a bath since the 1920's when a brick pillar was constructed within it. During the search a specialist search dog reacted to the bath and a presumptive test indicated positive for blood in a minute area of the bath.  Following detailed forensic microscopic examination no blood has been found.  There is nothing suspicious about the bath and no indication this bath has been used in the commission of any offences.
_______________________________________________________

Due to the age of the bath, it's not unreasonable to assume it was made of cast iron. Luminol reacts to rust. Rust is Iron Oxide and one form of Iron Oxide can be found in blood. Would such an alert by Keela be classed as a false positive for blood or an alert within her training parameters?

*snipped*
"Luminol can also react with substances like bleach, rust, fizzy drink and coffee, causing it to produce false positives."

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19722-blood-camera-to-spot-invisible-stains-at-crime-scenes/#ixzz6xNz1uKWV

It's worth pointing out that LGC Forensic costs invoiced to SOJ police were £453,000.
https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20Operation%20Rectangle%20review%20of%20the%20efficient%20and%20effective%20use%20of%20resources%20201005%20BDO%20Alto.pdf   (page 43 of document)

I fear that you are wasting your time, Misty.  This is way too logical.

[Brietta]

So Eddie alerted in a cellar. The police dug there and found something which a forensic anthropologist thought might be bone. I can see no evidence that the fragment was what triggered Eddie's alert, I see only assumptions by others.

You totally miss the point.

Eddie alerted a minimum of six times at Haute de la Garenne which was being searched specifically for bodies - not 'remnant scent' but physical remains.
And we have watched him doing some of it  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2874.msg99065#msg99065

In the event he alerted to NOTHING.  Much as he alerted to NOTHING in Praia da Luz.

But his actions in both places had catastrophic results not least of which resulted in both officers in charge of each case falling into disrepute.

[G-Unit]

You totally miss the point.

Eddie alerted a minimum of six times at Haute de la Garenne which was being searched specifically for bodies - not 'remnant scent' but physical remains.
And we have watched him doing some of it  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2874.msg99065#msg99065

In the event he alerted to NOTHING.  Much as he alerted to NOTHING in Praia da Luz.

But his actions in both places had catastrophic results not least of which resulted in both officers in charge of each case falling into disrepute.

Eddie's job was to alert when he smelled the odours he was trained to find. Some human beings THINK he alerted to NOTHING, but they can't KNOW if that's true or not.

Amaral wasn't in charge of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, Neves and Encarnacao were.

[Eleanor]

Eddie's job was to alert when he smelled the odours he was trained to find. Some human beings THINK he alerted to NOTHING, but they can't KNOW if that's true or not.

Amaral wasn't in charge of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, Neves and Encarnacao were.

I wonder why those two never wrote books.

[John]

You totally miss the point.

Eddie alerted a minimum of six times at Haute de la Garenne which was being searched specifically for bodies - not 'remnant scent' but physical remains.
And we have watched him doing some of it  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2874.msg99065#msg99065

In the event he alerted to NOTHING.  Much as he alerted to NOTHING in Praia da Luz.

But his actions in both places had catastrophic results not least of which resulted in both officers in charge of each case falling into disrepute.

I think Eddie's alert spectrum was far too wide to be of much use.

[Brietta]

Eddie's job was to alert when he smelled the odours he was trained to find. Some human beings THINK he alerted to NOTHING, but they can't KNOW if that's true or not.

Amaral wasn't in charge of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, Neves and Encarnacao were.

We have had this conversation before.


As I said ... "the existence of a cadaver is not a requirement for a cadaver dog to alert.  In Haute de la Garennne for example the Victim Recovery Dog alerted to a tissue used to clean up after a sexual encounter.  Keela the CSI dog also alerted. But there was no cadaver; the dogs had alerted to semen and blood."

It was concluded that the dogs alerted to tissues after sexual activity which usually occurs while participants are alive and well.

Haut de la Garenne
 
OPERATION RECTANGLE SUMMARY REPORT JULY 22 2008

V/T 9 Re-enforced concrete machine gun post and protective trench, personnel shelter attached. Earth and debris removed by hand and plant machinery to allow access.
The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results.

EVRD – positive indication.
SOCO visual – positive.
Blood dog - positive indication.
Visual – positive.
UV – negative (items removed prior to screening).
Quasar - negative.

Positive indications confirmed as being recently deposited tissues used to clean up after sex by unknown persons. Offences not suspected at this stage. Retained as exhibit should there be future reports of offences. There will be no forensic submission at this stage.
----------------------------------
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
https://catalogue.jerseyheritage.org/collection/Details/archive/110390044

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11381.msg618468#msg618468

[Eleanor]

I think Eddie's alert spectrum was far too wide to be of much use.

This much was obvious a very log time ago.  Although hardly his fault.