Author Topic: Wandering Off Topic  (Read 3158818 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10455 on: June 11, 2021, 08:18:21 PM »
What scientific studies have been done on dogs ability to detect remnant scent theough a layer of concrete, ie: sniff out the temporary resting place of a corpse years that lay in situ years earlier that is subsequently removed and the resting placed covered in concrete?  Anyone know?

What concrete?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10456 on: June 11, 2021, 08:22:52 PM »
Didn't you read it ~ "Haul de Ia Garenne" http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg654221#msg654221

It's spelled correctly in the original. It seems to be something that can happen when copying and pasting from a pdf. document.
https://superuser.com/questions/137824/pdf-has-garbled-text-when-copy-pasting
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10457 on: June 11, 2021, 08:25:54 PM »
What concrete?

“His murder inquiry began when Eddie, an "enhanced victim recovery dog", began barking in the cellar of Haut de la Garenne – the sign, according to its handler, that he had detected the scent of human remains.

By coincidence, the dog, from South Yorkshire Police, is the same animal that supposedly picked up "the scent of death" in the apartment where Madeleine McCann was last seen in Praia de Luz in Portugal.

According to Mr Harper, Eddie smelled the decades-old skull fragment through "several inches" of concrete, which police then smashed through. Eddie had the same reaction at another six locations at Haut de la Garenne but nothing was ever found.

"I don't believe a dog can pick up such a scent through a layer of concrete," said Mike Swindells, a former Lancashire officer who wrote the standard sniffer dog training manual.

"It's really very unlikely."
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 08:29:42 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Brietta

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10459 on: June 11, 2021, 08:48:31 PM »
It's spelled correctly in the original. It seems to be something that can happen when copying and pasting from a pdf. document.
https://superuser.com/questions/137824/pdf-has-garbled-text-when-copy-pasting

Might I request you indulge me with the relevant page number in the link you provided.
https://catalogue.jerseyheritage.org/wp-content/plugins/adlib-interface/adlib-download.php?p=110390044&f=0&d=archive&suppress_download
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10460 on: June 11, 2021, 10:04:54 PM »
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10461 on: June 11, 2021, 10:16:28 PM »
What scientific studies have been done on dogs ability to detect remnant scent theough a layer of concrete, ie: sniff out the temporary resting place of a corpse years that lay in situ years earlier that is subsequently removed and the resting placed covered in concrete?  Anyone know?

The dog alerted to a stairwell. I don't know who said he detected through a layer of concrete;

CANINE SEARCH

The reactions of the dog are explained as scent travelling through  ‘chimneys’ such as conduit, electric cable ducting, which transects from the north west stairwell along the western corridor in a southerly direction.
http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/04/summary-of-evidence.html
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10462 on: June 11, 2021, 10:21:25 PM »
https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20Operation%20Rectangle%20review%20of%20the%20efficient%20and%20effective%20use%20of%20resources%20201005%20BDO%20Alto.pdf pg 45 and 46 if you prefer

This document was focused on examining and assessing the costs of the enquiry, details of which were made available to those involved. When commenting on details of the investigation their information seems to have been gathered from media reports rather than police records.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10463 on: June 11, 2021, 10:34:04 PM »
Page 4

Thank you.

Where exactly.

STATES OF JERSEY POLICE
• The human blood search dog was deployed in a detailed close supervision search role
within crime scenes to locate human blood deposits that may be explained at a later
date as being accidental or suspicious.
The system of deployment was recorded in the Standard Operating Procedures and policy
documents. The policies and procedures were applied consistently throughout the search to
conclusion.
The following search scenarios were considered and adopted where deemed appropriate.

Feature based searching. (Deposition)
Although feature based search is adopted in most cases of homicide in this particular case
there are no obvious features that are evident in the present day that were evident at the
operational material time. However, present day features such as trees and obvious ground
disturbance would be included within the scenario based search strategy.
Offender profile based search. (Deposition)
There are no known offenders in this case in relation to homicide. However the abuse of
child/juvenile' residents was reportedly committed by staff and residents.

Offender profile based search (Evidential- abuse) 1
Although there are a number of suspected offenders in the case all policed searches would be
included within scenario based searches.

Speculative search.
Speculative searching was not included. All searches conducted were subject to discussion
and policy decision in relation to scenario, based upon anecdotal witness evidence.

Scenario Based Searching
Prior to any searches being undertaken scenarios to be considered included:
the search for the sub surface, non dismembered, skeletal remains of children within the
building and grounds of Haut de la Garenne.

Intelligence of a child having been chased through the building and leaping through a
window. 

Intelligence of forced illegal abortion.

Intelligence of Still borne child 

The search for and recovery of any evidence that would directly corroborate witness .
testimony of abuse, or support witness testimony of abuse, or any suggestive intelligence of
same.

Witness accounts of systematic abuse, both violent and sexual, include anecdotal evidence of
events in the cellar areas hidden from view under the ground floor of the building.

The search for and recovery of any evidence that would directly corroborate witness
testimony of abuse, support witness testimony of abuse, or any suggestive intelligence of
PO BOX 789 JERSEY JE4 BZD TELEPHONE 01534 612612 FAX 01534 612613
WEBSITE www.pollce.gov.je
CHIEF OFFICER: GRAHAM POWER QPM MA (Oxon) DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER: LEONARD HARPER MSc BA (Hans)
page 4 of 24
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10464 on: June 11, 2021, 10:35:50 PM »
The dog alerted to a stairwell. I don't know who said he detected through a layer of concrete;

CANINE SEARCH

The reactions of the dog are explained as scent travelling through  ‘chimneys’ such as conduit, electric cable ducting, which transects from the north west stairwell along the western corridor in a southerly direction.
http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/04/summary-of-evidence.html
Did you ignore my previous post?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10465 on: June 11, 2021, 10:36:15 PM »
This document was focused on examining and assessing the costs of the enquiry, details of which were made available to those involved. When commenting on details of the investigation their information seems to have been gathered from media reports rather than police records.
@)(++(*
Supply the police records then.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10466 on: June 12, 2021, 08:10:33 AM »
Thank you.

Where exactly.

STATES OF JERSEY POLICE
• The human blood search dog was deployed in a detailed close supervision search role
within crime scenes to locate human blood deposits that may be explained at a later
date as being accidental or suspicious.
The system of deployment was recorded in the Standard Operating Procedures and policy
documents. The policies and procedures were applied consistently throughout the search to
conclusion.
The following search scenarios were considered and adopted where deemed appropriate.

Feature based searching. (Deposition)
Although feature based search is adopted in most cases of homicide in this particular case
there are no obvious features that are evident in the present day that were evident at the
operational material time. However, present day features such as trees and obvious ground
disturbance would be included within the scenario based search strategy.
Offender profile based search. (Deposition)
There are no known offenders in this case in relation to homicide. However the abuse of
child/juvenile' residents was reportedly committed by staff and residents.

Offender profile based search (Evidential- abuse) 1
Although there are a number of suspected offenders in the case all policed searches would be
included within scenario based searches.

Speculative search.
Speculative searching was not included. All searches conducted were subject to discussion
and policy decision in relation to scenario, based upon anecdotal witness evidence.

Scenario Based Searching
Prior to any searches being undertaken scenarios to be considered included:
the search for the sub surface, non dismembered, skeletal remains of children within the
building and grounds of Haut de la Garenne.

Intelligence of a child having been chased through the building and leaping through a
window. 

Intelligence of forced illegal abortion.

Intelligence of Still borne child 

The search for and recovery of any evidence that would directly corroborate witness .
testimony of abuse, or support witness testimony of abuse, or any suggestive intelligence of
same.

Witness accounts of systematic abuse, both violent and sexual, include anecdotal evidence of
events in the cellar areas hidden from view under the ground floor of the building.

The search for and recovery of any evidence that would directly corroborate witness
testimony of abuse, support witness testimony of abuse, or any suggestive intelligence of
PO BOX 789 JERSEY JE4 BZD TELEPHONE 01534 612612 FAX 01534 612613
WEBSITE www.pollce.gov.je
CHIEF OFFICER: GRAHAM POWER QPM MA (Oxon) DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER: LEONARD HARPER MSc BA (Hans)
page 4 of 24

Flippin' pdf. At the top it says page 4, but at the bottom of the page it says page 3.

STATES OF JERSEY POLICE
These staged renovations have been identified from archive plarming so as to prioritise areas
of search and identifY precise locations of relevant to this enquiry.
TASKING, STRATEGY AND DEPLOYMENT
On 5/2/08 a briefing was held at LGC Forensics Oxford Chaired by the SIO Deputy Chief
Officer Lenny Harper, States of Jersey Police. In addition to the briefing a document was
distributed which had been prepared by Karl Harrison, lead scientist LGC. This document
was a desk based study of the "Haut de Ia Garenne" site.
The Forensic Canine Search Consultancy produced a canine deployment brief encompassing
the entire site to maximise assurity. The canine assets would be deployed both in a wide area
screening and detailed search capacity.
On 19/2/08 the "Haul de Ia Garenne" site was visited by a reconnaissance party including
States of Jersey Police SIO and Forensic Services Manager, NPIA homicide search advisors,
FCSC canine advisor and LGC Forensics staff representing forensic archaeology and
anthropology.

https://catalogue.jerseyheritage.org/wp-content/plugins/adlib-interface/adlib-download.php?p=110390044&f=0&d=archive&suppress_download

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Offline Eleanor

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10467 on: June 12, 2021, 08:59:01 AM »

So we can't trust pdfs for Cites.  And it's someone else's fault.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10468 on: June 12, 2021, 09:31:28 AM »
So we can't trust pdfs for Cites.  And it's someone else's fault.

Pardon? There's nothing wrong with using pdf. files for cites, but copying and pasting the info can be problematic.
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #10469 on: June 12, 2021, 09:48:58 AM »
Pardon? There's nothing wrong with using pdf. files for cites, but copying and pasting the info can be problematic.

How do you work that one out if there is a problem with Copy and Paste?

And never say 'Pardon', always say 'What', my granny used to say.