Wandering Off Topic

[Carana]

He was effectively scuppering chances of her being found alive. What honest copper (and a dad, to boot), could be so heartless?

This could also show imo - he had first hand information of what happened that night he was on the case an could probably know things we don't.

This is why I believe he knows the mccs are involved - and has risked everything to stick to his belief

Because he is basically a cop and father with knowledge of the case....

G.A was there.. involved ....none of us was ..he is working from knowledge ...ours is just opinions what we think happened.


It amazes me the work posters go to ...too discredit the dogs an Grime ...why...what does it prove

why so obsessed to discredit the dogs if you think there alerts were of no use anyway.

It does not alter the fact that the dogs only alerted to the mccs and the mccs belongings in different areas.

Not one single alert it seems.... to any of the others in there group.

I have no problem with using dogs (or even rats) as assets. When dogs alert, there could be an item or an area worth investigating further. Alerts - on their own - mean little else.

[kizzy]

I have no problem with using dogs (or even rats) as assets. When dogs alert, there could be an item or an area worth investigating further. Alerts - on their own - mean little else.

Or even vultures ...are good at finding bodies.

[Eleanor]

The saddest part, for me, is that once the media switched off after the "skull" turned out be a coconut, it was almost as if nothing had ever happened there. The child abuse was real.

A bit of background reading:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/03/haut-de-la-garenne-house-of-horror-investigation-brought-jersey-abuse-to-light

All a bit too up close and personal for me.

I am beginning to suspect that my sister and I finished up in the only really lovely Children's Home that existed at the time.  However, we did get ideas above our station, which didn't go down too well when we were inevitably sent back home.  But we did both survive that and go on to continue to believe in our selves.

[G-Unit]

Mine doesn't.
The bottom of page three says - Page three of twenty four.  Page four is the same and is as I have cut and pasted with no page number on the top but with Page four of twenty four at the bottom.


I think the problem as far as I am concerned is that you have added opinion to the quotation by saying "The advice and assistance of the NPIA in the deployment of UK specialists was secured... On 19/2/08 the "Haul de Ia Garenne" site was visited


Which is actually a bit of a laugh when one reads OPERATION RECTANGLE.  Advice and assistance was sought but whether or not it was taken is another matter.  But it most certainly was not a factor in the deployment of the dogs when none of the procedures in force at the time were either sought or implemented.

Snip

“It is not entirely clear how Mr Grime came to be involved in Operation Rectangle.  What is clear is that Mr Grime was the only specialist in this field who was approached and perhaps even considered by SOJP.  LGC, in response to a request for advice on this topic from SOJP in January2008, did in fact suggest and pass on the contact details of the Surrey Police Dog Unit but this was not followed up and no other UK police force was approached.  This seems slightly odd, especially given the stance of the ACPO Police Dog Working Group on this issue.”
Page 37
CFID landscape report (gov.je)

https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20Operation%20Rectangle%20review%20of%20the%20efficient%20and%20effective%20use%20of%20resources%20201005%20BDO%20Alto.pdf

The reason for Grime's involvement may not have been clear to those who were tasked with examining the costs of the investigation because they may not have had access to all the information.

I don't know either, but he had worked with the National Police Search Advisers before, and was registered as a subject matter expert with NCPE pre his retirement. It may well be that Grime was recommended to Harper due to his expertise.

[Eleanor]

The reason for Grime's involvement may not have been clear to those who were tasked with examining the costs of the investigation because they may not have had access to all the information.

I don't know either, but he had worked with the National Police Search Advisers before, and was registered as a subject matter expert with NCPE pre his retirement. It may well be that Grime was recommended to Harper due to his expertise.

Didn't Grime take the Dog Video Searches from Praia de Luz with him to show Lenny Harper?  I wonder who would have suggested that.

[Brietta]

The reason for Grime's involvement may not have been clear to those who were tasked with examining the costs of the investigation because they may not have had access to all the information.

I don't know either, but he had worked with the National Police Search Advisers before, and was registered as a subject matter expert with NCPE pre his retirement. It may well be that Grime was recommended to Harper due to his expertise.

I really think it is about time you took the rose coloured spectacles off and informed yourself exactly what it is you are talking about by reading OPERATION RECTANGLE which is the official report into the fiasco at Haute de la Garenne.

Of course these guys knew exactly what went on even if in retrospect, to suggest otherwise is nonsense.

Martin Grime will always be an expert.  But he took a dog to Praia da Luz and to Jersey whose licence had run out making the dog team incompetent in both those areas.
Perhaps that may not have mattered in Luz but in Jersey it was an entirely different matter.

[G-Unit]

Didn't Grime take the Dog Video Searches from Praia de Luz with him to show Lenny Harper?  I wonder who would have suggested that.

I've no idea. I only decided to look at Haut de la Garenne because I was fed up of being told that Eddie alerted to coconut. It now seems to me that statement isn't necessarily true.

[Mr Gray]

The reason for Grime's involvement may not have been clear to those who were tasked with examining the costs of the investigation because they may not have had access to all the information.

I don't know either, but he had worked with the National Police Search Advisers before, and was registered as a subject matter expert with NCPE pre his retirement. It may well be that Grime was recommended to Harper due to his expertise.

I read in one of the reports that whilst in Jersey Grime offered his services to two other investigations on the island but was turned down. Perhaps he heard about the Jersey case and like other businesses.... Pushed his forward to get the lucrative contract

[Brietta]

Didn't Grime take the Dog Video Searches from Praia de Luz with him to show Lenny Harper?  I wonder who would have suggested that.

I believe he did and I believe that he found them very convincing.

So many people had so much faith and reputation invested in what they believed were these dogs unique abilities that they just could not see the very obvious flaws.

The dogs just could not find what wasn't there to be found in the first instance.
Not forgetting that in Luz some alerts were proven forensically - none of which had anything to do with the McCanns (Kate's fingerprints and Gerry's cellular material excepted) - just as other 'hits' in Jersey were valid ones too (the semen found at the outpost and the cremation scatterings).
But just as in Luz nothing of relevance to further the case.

[Brietta]

I read in one of the reports that whilst in Jersey Grime offered his services to two other investigations on the island but was turned down. Perhaps he heard about the Jersey case and like other businesses.... Pushed his forward to get the lucrative contract

I agree and why not - he was a private individual running his own company.  I think if Lenny Harper had followed the advice and offers of help from mainland police forces as he should the situation would not have arisen.

[Brietta]

I've no idea. I only decided to look at Haut de la Garenne because I was fed up of being told that Eddie alerted to coconut. It now seems to me that statement isn't necessarily true.

Maybe I was wrong to recommend reading OPERATION RECTANGLE to you.  Whatever the evidence it seems you know better.

[Mr Gray]

I've no idea. I only decided to look at Haut de la Garenne because I was fed up of being told that Eddie alerted to coconut. It now seems to me that statement isn't necessarily true.

According to the BDO report eddie did alert to a coconut....and as I recall from posts on this forum Grime did use the video of Luz to promote his business

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10842.msg540602#msg540602

[Brietta]

According to the BDO report eddie did alert to a coconut....and as I recall from posts on this forum Grime did use the video of Luz to promote his business

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10842.msg540602#msg540602

You are correct in saying that the catalyst was the video from Praia da Luz, Davel.

Snip
As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.

'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.

'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html

[G-Unit]

According to the BDO report eddie did alert to a coconut....and as I recall from posts on this forum Grime did use the video of Luz to promote his business

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10842.msg540602#msg540602

According to a company of Chartered Accountants..............

[Vertigo Swirl]

According to a company of Chartered Accountants..............

Do you have access to the police and forensic reports confirming this was not a coconut fragment but a child’s remains?