Wandering Off Topic

[G-Unit]

Yeah i just linked it quickly so looks as if i got it a bit wrong with numbers and handlers from a FOI. But surely that mqkes you think different with the 200 cases?

That's why I ask for cites; people often get it wrong when referring to their sources.

The FOI deals with deployments between 2003-2007. Grime refers to 200 cases over 6 years operational deployment. So immediately there's a mismatch between the periods being discussed. Is every deployment associated only with one case? We don't know. Was Grime's work with Mark Harrison counted as a deployment? Again, we don't know.

I can't conclude anything for sure by reading this FOI.

[G-Unit]

in the article I cited yesterday in a study on drug and explosive dogs "No target odors were present, and yet dogs positively indicated 85% of the time, handlers said, suggesting the dogs served as loyal companions first and objective scent detectors second".
Do they not train these dogs as well as Grime trained his?  If not why not and why are Grime’s methods not setting the standard by which all sniffer dogs are trained, to be 100% infallibe and never make a false positive alert?

Most of these studies are from the US, where the situation is very different to the UK. Police dogs in the UK are trained to national standards and are regularly independantly tested and licenced. No such system exists in the US, which is exactly why the FBI (a national organisation) decided to set up their own dog section, properly trained, handled and accredited.

[Eleanor]

Most of these studies are from the US, where the situation is very different to the UK. Police dogs in the UK are trained to national standards and are regularly independantly tested and licenced. No such system exists in the US, which is exactly why the FBI (a national organisation) decided to set up their own dog section, properly trained, handled and accredited.

The Dog Handlers in America are a lot more honest about their dogs' capabilities.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Most of these studies are from the US, where the situation is very different to the UK. Police dogs in the UK are trained to national standards and are regularly independantly tested and licenced. No such system exists in the US, which is exactly why the FBI (a national organisation) decided to set up their own dog section, properly trained, handled and accredited.

And when did that happen exactly?  I thought Grime took his dogs TO the USA because they were able to train them better over there?   If UK dogs are regularly independently tested perhaps you can provide a cite from Grime to show when and who and how his dogs received their independent certificates of dog-worthiness.

[Mr Gray]

Most of these studies are from the US, where the situation is very different to the UK. Police dogs in the UK are trained to national standards and are regularly independantly tested and licenced. No such system exists in the US, which is exactly why the FBI (a national organisation) decided to set up their own dog section, properly trained, handled and accredited.

The testing for the dogs in the UK is not very thorough and is in no way scientific.
We don't know what part grime played in the US programme as there is no independent information.
Claims that he impressed the FBI are also questionable. It seems to me he did impress one man.. Stockhouse. Was that with his skill as a dog trainer or his willingness to present them as evidence... A relatively new idea in 2007

I

Its now 17 years since Harrison and Grime got together to explore whether alerts on their own can provide intelligence... Grime considers them to be evidence.
They seem to have made little or no progress

[Mr Gray]

My opinion of Grime is that he totally inflated the abilities of his dogs which led the investigation in the wrong direction.... And has done nothing to correct it.
A similar criticism was made of him in the BDO report re his actions on Jersey.. So my opinion is not just that of a anon poster on the net... My views are supported by experts

[G-Unit]

And when did that happen exactly?  I thought Grime took his dogs TO the USA because they were able to train them better over there?   If UK dogs are regularly independently tested perhaps you can provide a cite from Grime to show when and who and how his dogs received their independent certificates of dog-worthiness.

If you need the details I can recommend Google.

[Mr Gray]

If you need the details I can recommend Google.

you have made a claim and should provide a cite

[Eleanor]

If you need the details I can recommend Google.

Your claim.  Your Cite.  But we don't get many of those, if any.

And every time we come back to No Charges against The McCanns we then get Conspiracy Theories.  Thank God you aren't in charge of The CPS.

[G-Unit]

And when did that happen exactly?  I thought Grime took his dogs TO the USA because they were able to train them better over there?   If UK dogs are regularly independently tested perhaps you can provide a cite from Grime to show when and who and how his dogs received their independent certificates of dog-worthiness.

All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the licence they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire, which is usually at about the age of 8. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods and standards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog#United_Kingdom

[Brietta]

If you need the details I can recommend Google.

That's a statement worth bearing in mind but it really is not necessary to use to Google to ascertain the way in which total misrepresentation of Martin Grime and his dogs' visit to Luz influenced Madeleine McCann's case abd bolstered the witch hunt her parents have endured as a result.  It is all the files and there is a dichotomy there with belief v evidence.

Think about it rationally in present day terms.

• man carries out research on a missing child case for a book he is writing
• he locates what may be part of a child's skull in an area his research has indicated might be a deposition site
• a soil sample taken by him and tested indicates possible human decomposition
• the possibility that the child's grave may have been found is taken very seriously by police
• search teams are deployed for days - samples are taken and tested
• sadly the search has had to be called off
  • no trace of the child's body was found
  • no evidence - no proof
  thorough investigation of the site was carried out and despite the hope that the child's remains had been found - it was not to be proven

Detective Chief Inspector Cheryl Hughes said: "In response to the report made on Thursday September 29, officers met with the member of the public who later provided us with samples and copies of the photographs he had taken.

"He also took officers to the location from which he had obtained these and provided grid references.

“In the days since, independent accredited forensic archaeologists and certified forensic anthropologists, together with GMP’s crime scene investigators, have completed a methodical forensic archaeological excavation and examination of the identified area and beyond.

“An accredited forensic geologist also took a number of soil samples – analysis of which is ongoing.

“The items given to us by the member of the public have been examined by a forensic scientist and though this hasn’t yet indicated the presence of human remains – more analysis is required.

“With regards to the photograph, we have sought the assistance of a forensic botanist.

“We are now utilising the knowledge and skills of a forensic image expert to put a standard anthropological measurement to the object to assist with identification.

“At this stage, the indications are that it would be considerably smaller than a juvenile jaw and it cannot be ruled out that it is plant-based.

“The excavation and examination at the site is complete and, to reiterate, we have found no evidence that this is the burial location of Keith Bennett.”
https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-10-07/no-evidence-police-end-search-for-moors-murder-victim

The original researcher has confirmed his belief and that he still stands by his original premise.  Although the evidence does not support that and the case remains open.

[Vertigo Swirl]

If you need the details I can recommend Google.

you make the claims, you provide the cites, I thought that was how these things worked?

[Vertigo Swirl]

All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the licence they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire, which is usually at about the age of 8. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods and standards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog#United_Kingdom

Hadn't Eddie's license run out by the time he was brought in to PdL?  Are you saying that sniffer dogs used in the USA are unlicensed?  In any case I'd be interested for independent verification of Grime's claims that his dog never gave a false positive alert ever.  I doubt even google could help me find that!

[Eleanor]

Hadn't Eddie's license run out by the time he was brought in to PdL?  Are you saying that sniffer dogs used in the USA are unlicensed?  In any case I'd be interested for independent verification of Grime's claims that his dog never gave a false positive alert ever.  I doubt even google could help me find that!

After that, Grime relied on his own ability to train Cadaver Dogs.  He didn't think he needed a Licence.

Both Praia de Luz and Jersey proved absolutely nothing.  Martin Grime did so much harm for some reason that is beyond me.

[G-Unit]

Hadn't Eddie's license run out by the time he was brought in to PdL?  Are you saying that sniffer dogs used in the USA are unlicensed?  In any case I'd be interested for independent verification of Grime's claims that his dog never gave a false positive alert ever.  I doubt even google could help me find that!

I have no idea, but Grime was still a serving police officer so I assume not.