The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.

[Opal]

I've been studying the letter/numbers John could see in the patch of blood next to the bible.  I could be wrong but on checking the double photo of Shelia with the gun on her chest and then the other one where her arm is moved, the blood mark where the letter/numbers are... isn't there. Plus, the edge of the other photo where  the  U shaped blood would have been after her arm was moved has been cut off.  Could this tell us that the blood mark John was speaking of was under the bible before Shelia's arm was moved?

[Caroline]

I've been studying the letter/numbers John could see in the patch of blood next to the bible.  I could be wrong but on checking the double photo of Shelia with the gun on her chest and then the other one where her arm is moved, the blood mark where the letter/numbers are... isn't there. Plus, the edge of the other photo where  the  U shaped blood would have been after her arm was moved has been cut off.  Could this tell us that the blood mark John was speaking of was under the bible before Shelia's arm was moved?

The U shape is facing the wrong direction Opal. Think it was Myster who mentioned the letters and numbers but suggested that they were from someone having written something while resting on the picture?

[Myster]

I've been studying the letter/numbers John could see in the patch of blood next to the bible.  I could be wrong but on checking the double photo of Shelia with the gun on her chest and then the other one where her arm is moved, the blood mark where the letter/numbers are... isn't there. Plus, the edge of the other photo where  the  U shaped blood would have been after her arm was moved has been cut off.  Could this tell us that the blood mark John was speaking of was under the bible before Shelia's arm was moved?

Yes, the illegible number and word I could see in the carpet stain appeared at first to have been written in the blood, but on studying them again were more likely to have been impressions caused by someone (JB?) writing a letter on a sheet of paper which rested on top of the original CS photo. When this photo was subsequently photographed again, the impressions showed up... so another myth debunked before it even began.

The bible might have shifted slightly when her arm was moved, but not enough to make any difference to the position of the stain. It's difficult to tell, because in the dual photo (attached) the camera's location was changed for each shot. In the left pic the camera was held towards the foot of the bed, in the right pic it was held towards the head of the bed, so giving distorted views.

The mystery is... that the bible stain is abruptly cut off at the top of the page, which means that there should be a continuation of that stain on the carpet, somewhere between the arrows just above the top edge of the bible (in the second attached photo). The carpet stain (where I saw the mysterious number and word) is too far over to the right to have caused the bible stain, and even if it had would have been on the wrong (left-hand) page anyway.

As I said before, and as Caroline is definite about, I think the bible stain is a palm print caused by a woman's bloodied right hand, rather than from anything transferred off the carpet.

[Opal]

Thanks for explanation Caroline and Myster.

So the bible couldn't have been upside down whilst face at some point ?

[Holly Goodhead]

Just been rummaging in the loft looking for an old hard drive which has stored docs on from my Blue days!  Many of which I've never read!

From the Dickinson report:

Point 143 - confirmation the police may have moved the bible when searching the house ie before SoC/photographers entered?

Point 146 - reference to the twins being found in a small bedroom from the main bedroom via a communicating box room.

I have for a long time now thought SC was moved significantly probably by PC Collins and Delgado.  I  believe her body may have been blocking the entrance to the box room leading to the small bedroom where the twins were found in and for whatever reason(s), operational or otherwise, this is how the twins were initially identified not via the landing. 

 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Myster]

Just been rummaging in the loft looking for an old hard drive which has stored docs on from my Blue days!  Many of which I've never read!

From the Dickinson report:

Point 143 - confirmation the police may have moved the bible when searching the house ie before SoC/photographers entered?

Point 146 - reference to the twins being found in a small bedroom from the main bedroom via a communicating box room.

I have for a long time now thought SC was moved significantly probably by PC Collins and Delgado.  I  believe her body may have been blocking the entrance to the box room leading to the small bedroom where the twins were found in and for whatever reason(s), operational or otherwise, this is how the twins were initially identified not via the landing. 

If Sheila was moved away from the Boxroom door, I'm certain there would be a heavy blood trail on the carpet from where she was dragged/pulled/shoved/lifted... but there isn't any. Even in 1985 the police must have been aware never to shift anything prior to CS photos being taken. And there might have been easy access to the Boxroom from the twins' bedroom anyway, so no need to move any body to reach it from the master bedroom.

[Myster]

Thanks for explanation Caroline and Myster.

So the bible couldn't have been upside down whilst face at some point ?

Don't understand your question, Opal... you'll have to rephrase, unless Caroline can fathom it.

[APRIL]

If Sheila was moved away from the Boxroom door, I'm certain there would be a heavy blood trail on the carpet from where she was dragged/pulled/shoved/lifted... but there isn't any. Even in 1985 the police must have been aware never to shift anything prior to CS photos being taken. And there might have been easy access to the Boxroom from the twins' bedroom anyway, so no need to move any body to reach it from the master bedroom.

I'll leave it to you to sort out the lay out, but originally, what we now call a box room, was the gentleman's dressing room which separated his bedroom from his wife's bedroom. There would have been access TO both bedrooms from the landing area, and access FROM both bedrooms to and from the dressing room. Latterly the dressing room often made a convenient en suite.

[Holly Goodhead]

If Sheila was moved away from the Boxroom door, I'm certain there would be a heavy blood trail on the carpet from where she was dragged/pulled/shoved/lifted... but there isn't any. Even in 1985 the police must have been aware never to shift anything prior to CS photos being taken. And there might have been easy access to the Boxroom from the twins' bedroom anyway, so no need to move any body to reach it from the master bedroom.

I'm not sure about blood trails?  Maybe some blood leaked onto the bible?  When I said significantly I meant more than, for example, when DI Cook moved SC's hand for PC Bird to photograph underneath, but obviously still within that corner of the bedroom. 

I think being aware from training is one thing but practice is another especially when officers were faced with the horrors that met them at WHF.

That corner looks pretty tight to me especially for police officers wearing flak jackets and carrying firearms.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7216.0;attach=6702

[Holly Goodhead]

I'll leave it to you to sort out the lay out, but originally, what we now call a box room, was the gentleman's dressing room which separated his bedroom from his wife's bedroom. There would have been access TO both bedrooms from the landing area, and access FROM both bedrooms to and from the dressing room. Latterly the dressing room often made a convenient en suite.

Sounds exciting!  Where did all the action take place so to speak?  The gentleman's dressing room?

[APRIL]

Sounds exciting!  Where did all the action take place so to speak?  The gentleman's dressing room?

Ah, well thems were the days when the polite and courteous husband, who showed his wife every consideration, would knock to be allowed in. It also served to give him privacy in his own quarters where the real actkion may have happened.

[Myster]

Ah, well thems were the days when the polite and courteous husband, who showed his wife every consideration, would knock to be allowed in. It also served to give him privacy in his own quarters where the real actkion may have happened.

A new name for nooky that I've never come across!

[scipio_usmc]

Just been rummaging in the loft looking for an old hard drive which has stored docs on from my Blue days!  Many of which I've never read!

From the Dickinson report:

Point 143 - confirmation the police may have moved the bible when searching the house ie before SoC/photographers entered?

Point 146 - reference to the twins being found in a small bedroom from the main bedroom via a communicating box room.

I have for a long time now thought SC was moved significantly probably by PC Collins and Delgado.  I  believe her body may have been blocking the entrance to the box room leading to the small bedroom where the twins were found in and for whatever reason(s), operational or otherwise, this is how the twins were initially identified not via the landing.

As I have pointed out many times the Bible was not simply lying face down in half. The pages were folded over. While it is possible for Jeremy to have placed it in such folded position Dickinson among others speculate that maybe the door was opened and pushed the Bible against the body causing the folding over. This speculation is ill advised because the door can't open enough to push the Bible against her. The night stand and her head prevent the door from opening enough to push the Bible as suggested.

The only movement of the Bible by police that is possible would be slightly pulling it away from her body to expose the looseleaf paper sheet more or to try to look at the blood under the Bible. The trail of blood leaking down her arm that got on the paper fails to perfectly line up. That means either the killer slightly disturbed things after that blood flowed, which is certainly possible, or police slightly moved it to get a look at the blood under it or get a look at the note. 

Aside from the fact that the police say they didn't move her body to try to enter the boxroom, the pool of blood next to Sheila that formed after she was dragged flat proves that is where her body was left. She can't have been by the door or the pool of blood would have been there instead.

[Opal]

Don't understand your question, Opal... you'll have to rephrase, unless Caroline can fathom it.

Sorry Myster.....trying to do too much at the same time ( I'm writing a small treasure hunt at the moment)  I guess I thought I'd give you a puzzle as well!   

I meant to say.....could the bible be upside down and face down....therefore the blood stain being at the bottom of the page instead of the top?

[Holly Goodhead]

As I have pointed out many times the Bible was not simply lying face down in half. The pages were folded over. While it is possible for Jeremy to have placed it in such folded position Dickinson among others speculate that maybe the door was opened and pushed the Bible against the body causing the folding over. This speculation is ill advised because the door can't open enough to push the Bible against her. The night stand and her head prevent the door from opening enough to push the Bible as suggested.

The only movement of the Bible by police that is possible would be slightly pulling it away from her body to expose the looseleaf paper sheet more or to try to look at the blood under the Bible. The trail of blood leaking down her arm that got on the paper fails to perfectly line up. That means either the killer slightly disturbed things after that blood flowed, which is certainly possible, or police slightly moved it to get a look at the blood under it or get a look at the note. 

Aside from the fact that the police say they didn't move her body to try to enter the boxroom, the pool of blood next to Sheila that formed after she was dragged flat proves that is where her body was left. She can't have been by the door or the pool of blood would have been there instead.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean above by the bibles position Scipio?

Where do the police specifically say they did not move SC's body to enter the boxroom?  The raid team WS's imply they left the main bedroom and first identified the twins by accessing their bedroom from the landing.  If this is the case there shouldn't have been a need for them to move SC as they could access the box room from the twins room.  Raid team WS's do make mention of opening the box room door from the main bedroom but imply this was just to check the room.  They make no mention of accessing the twins room from the box room.

Even after all occupants (victims) were identified, as per the info JB passed to officers, they continued to search the entire property with caution.  It's possible for operational reasons they may have moved SC to enable them to access that room by effectively storming it.  I don't get the impression the raid team relaxed after identifying the adult occupants/victims.