The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.

[scipio_usmc]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean above by the bibles position Scipio?

Here is a Bible folded neatly in half. It is folded this way when one takes there time to carefully set it down in half:




The Bible near Sheila was not folded neatly in half by someone who is holding it from both sides and sitting it down:



One way the pages can get like this is if the Bible was not set down nice and carefully while holding both sides. Setting it down with one hand can result in such.  This possibility is not sexy enough for some and is ignored in favor of suggesting the Bible had been in half flat on Sheila's body but then fell to the floor causing the uneven folding or being pushed closer to Sheila by the door or a foot.

If the Bible had been further away from Sheila's body then the blood that dripped down her arm would have gone to the floor instead of onto the looseleaf paper sticking out of the Bible. It is quit clear the Bible was next to her from the time she was flat as opposed to pushed there hours later by police.

Moreover, look how close the door is to her head, if the door were opened more it would hit her head as opposed to being able to open enough to push the Bible directly against her:

   

Where do the police specifically say they did not move SC's body to enter the boxroom?  The raid team WS's imply they left the main bedroom and first identified the twins by accessing their bedroom from the landing.  If this is the case there shouldn't have been a need for them to move SC as they could access the box room from the twins room.  Raid team WS's do make mention of opening the box room door from the main bedroom but imply this was just to check the room.  They make no mention of accessing the twins room from the box room.

Even after all occupants (victims) were identified, as per the info JB passed to officers, they continued to search the entire property with caution.  It's possible for operational reasons they may have moved SC to enable them to access that room by effectively storming it.  I don't get the impression the raid team relaxed after identifying the adult occupants/victims.

The appeal decision goes over the things police admitted to disturbing which means they denied disturbing anything else and did give an account in detail of their search. They specifically stated they didn't move her body in any way until after taking the initial photos.

They didn't walk through the boxroom to the twins. What they did was simply look in the door of the boxroom from the master bedroom to make sure it was clear.  They opened it just enough to walk in not enough to bash her head. They then cleared the other boxroom and Sheila's bedroom. Then they went to the other hallway and found the twins and finally cleared Jeremy's old bedroom.  The upstairs office had been cleared by going up the office stairs before they did any of the bedrooms.

Quite obviously if her body had been against the closet door they would not have needed to clear that room because the killer could not go inside it and then while inside move her body in front of the door. They would have worried about clearing it from the kid's room.

[Opal]

Could the bible have been folded double with the front and back covers then being inside, then fallen across SC's nightie when she fell back, with the page with most blood on against her nightie, then slipped down at some point making the spine of the bible open out again. This would account for most of the blood on the page being furthest away from the body. Looking at both pages with blood in them, and with the bible folded with covers of bible inside, the blood stains on both pages match up. This doesn't alter the fact that the bible was closed at some point.

[scipio_usmc]

Could the bible have been folded double with the front and back covers then being inside, then fallen across SC's nightie when she fell back, with the page with most blood on against her nightie, then slipped down at some point making the spine of the bible open out again. This would account for most of the blood on the page being furthest away from the body. Looking at both pages with blood in them, and with the bible folded with covers of bible inside, the blood stains on both pages match up. This doesn't alter the fact that the bible was closed at some point.

There is no way she could shoot herself and the Bible could end up anywhere on her body.  Thus it would make zero sense for Jeremy to place it on her body.  I just can't see any way that he would view the Bible on her as accomplishing anything but causing doubt she killed herself.

[Opal]

There is no way she could shoot herself and the Bible could end up anywhere on her body.  Thus it would make zero sense for Jeremy to place it on her body.  I just can't see any way that he would view the Bible on her as accomplishing anything but causing doubt she killed herself.

I didn't say that JB had placed the bible on SC, or that SC had it in her hand when she shot herself, however could JB have thrown the bible?

Statement from Trial.

Q - Do you remember, some time during our interviews I asked you about a bible, your mother had?
R - JB. Yes….( accused shown blue holy bible New Testament Version.

Q – Have you handled that bible recently?
R. - JB  My mother had a bible similar to that one and I could have handled  it.

Q – For what reason could you have handled it?
R - JB. To threaten the dog.

Q. When would that have been.?

R. JB. No comment.

JB hated the dog, the dog was found in the main bedroom. Could JB have thrown the bible at the dog?

[Holly Goodhead]

I didn't say that JB had placed the bible on SC, or that SC had it in her hand when she shot herself, however could JB have thrown the bible?

Statement from Trial.

Q - Do you remember, some time during our interviews I asked you about a bible, your mother had?
R - JB. Yes….( accused shown blue holy bible New Testament Version.

Q – Have you handled that bible recently?
R. - JB  My mother had a bible similar to that one and I could have handled  it.

Q – For what reason could you have handled it?
R - JB. To threaten the dog.

Q. When would that have been.?

R. JB. No comment.

JB hated the dog, the dog was found in the main bedroom. Could JB have thrown the bible at the dog?

Opal Is that from JB's trial testimony or police interviews?

[Opal]

sorry Holly, it was from Jeremy Bamber police interview transcript - 10 Sept 1985. Page 52

[scipio_usmc]

I didn't say that JB had placed the bible on SC, or that SC had it in her hand when she shot herself, however could JB have thrown the bible?

Statement from Trial.

Q - Do you remember, some time during our interviews I asked you about a bible, your mother had?
R - JB. Yes….( accused shown blue holy bible New Testament Version.

Q – Have you handled that bible recently?
R. - JB  My mother had a bible similar to that one and I could have handled  it.

Q – For what reason could you have handled it?
R - JB. To threaten the dog.

Q. When would that have been.?

R. JB. No comment.

JB hated the dog, the dog was found in the main bedroom. Could JB have thrown the bible at the dog?

The Bible was opened, a small amount of blood got on it, then it was closed and subsequently reopened to the same page. The chances of it reopening to the same page and landing on the same page he had previously opened it to is nil, it had to be opened to that page intentionally.

Sheila found religion recently and it is rather obvious the planting of the Bible was aimed at suggesting such was tied to her suicide or the murders.  What exactly Jeremy was doing that he closed and reopened it is not clear we only can figure out his broad intention.
 

[Holly Goodhead]

The Bible was opened, a small amount of blood got on it, then it was closed and subsequently reopened to the same page. The chances of it reopening to the same page and landing on the same page he had previously opened it to is nil, it had to be opened to that page intentionally.

Sheila found religion recently and it is rather obvious the planting of the Bible was aimed at suggesting such was tied to her suicide or the murders.  What exactly Jeremy was doing that he closed and reopened it is not clear we only can figure out his broad intention.

There's no firm evidence how the bible came to be where it was found or whose blood was on it.

There's some evidence SC had found relgion/God following her last breakdown.  She sent the letter to AE saying she had found God in a positive way or words to this effect.  She said similar to CC.  JB only saw SC infrequently would he have known about this?  If he did why not lay it on thick with the police when he phoned and stood outside them?  Why restrict it just to her mental illness? 

[Holly Goodhead]

Here is a Bible folded neatly in half. It is folded this way when one takes there time to carefully set it down in half:




The Bible near Sheila was not folded neatly in half by someone who is holding it from both sides and sitting it down:



One way the pages can get like this is if the Bible was not set down nice and carefully while holding both sides. Setting it down with one hand can result in such.  This possibility is not sexy enough for some and is ignored in favor of suggesting the Bible had been in half flat on Sheila's body but then fell to the floor causing the uneven folding or being pushed closer to Sheila by the door or a foot.

If the Bible had been further away from Sheila's body then the blood that dripped down her arm would have gone to the floor instead of onto the looseleaf paper sticking out of the Bible. It is quit clear the Bible was next to her from the time she was flat as opposed to pushed there hours later by police.

Moreover, look how close the door is to her head, if the door were opened more it would hit her head as opposed to being able to open enough to push the Bible directly against her:

   

Thanks Scipio. 

I'm sure there's an expert somewhere who has spent half his/her life studying these things but it isn't me.  I find it difficult to draw any firm conclusions about any of the photos especially when I read all the accompanying documents.

The American bible above is relatively new.  June's bible was heavily used and worn.  Apparently she referred to it constantly like some sort of guide as to how she should live.  It had a note inside on paper or card.  Also a piece of cloth possibly a bookmark.  Surely all these things would cause it to behave differently in terms of pages falling open etc?  We know June was capable of getting out of bed walking to NB's side and back to the main door.  I think its entirely possible she picked up the bible and walked round the bed with it and dropped it.  It may have been to the left of SC and the police moved SC over the bible so it was then situated on her right?  Movement may have caused blood from her wounds to run and end up on the bible?

SC's position doesn't look right to me.  Her head surely would not have fallen to the right of the bedside cabinet?  She would have fallen straight back with her head wedged against the cabinet and possibly some sort of bruising to the back of her head?

The appeal decision goes over the things police admitted to disturbing which means they denied disturbing anything else and did give an account in detail of their search. They specifically stated they didn't move her body in any way until after taking the initial photos.

The 2002 appeal didn't include police intefering the with SoC in the bedroom.  It was restricted to the kitchen only - ground 2.

The WS's of PC Collins and Delgado are identical word for word which I find suspicious given the others have all been written in their own words.

They didn't walk through the boxroom to the twins. What they did was simply look in the door of the boxroom from the master bedroom to make sure it was clear.  They opened it just enough to walk in not enough to bash her head. They then cleared the other boxroom and Sheila's bedroom. Then they went to the other hallway and found the twins and finally cleared Jeremy's old bedroom.  The upstairs office had been cleared by going up the office stairs before they did any of the bedrooms.

Unfortunately we don't have the benefit of an visual recording so we have no idea what they did or didn't do.  We only have their account of what they say they did which contradicts somewhat with various documents.

Quite obviously if her body had been against the closet door they would not have needed to clear that room because the killer could not go inside it and then while inside move her body in front of the door. They would have worried about clearing it from the kid's room.

The raid team had no real idea what had happened only what JB told them.  For all they knew the perp may have been in the box room.  It seems clear from the WS's they continued to search the property cautiously even after all occupants/victims had been identified.

[Holly Goodhead]

When I read about June and the role religion played (dominated) in her life I find it difficult to comprehend.

I recall in CAL's book shortly before the tragedy June was out and about in her friend's car and suddenly said "Pray for Sheila". 

I've also recently read Jean Boutell's WS and the Dickinson report again both of which confirm June's strong religious beliefs/faith.  On this basis and given June walked from her side of the bed to NB's and back I'm convinced she reached for her bible, carried it with her and dropped it in the vicinity it was found.

14. June Bamber was also 61 years old. Religion had always played a strong part in her life. In her latter years her interest in this regard had to an extent come to dominate her thinking, to a point that might have been thought to be obsessive. In 1982, she received treatment at a psychiatric hospital in Northampton.

[Myster]

When I read about June and the role religion played (dominated) in her life I find it difficult to comprehend.

I recall in CAL's book shortly before the tragedy June was out and about in her friend's car and suddenly said "Pray for Sheila". 

I've also recently read Jean Boutell's WS and the Dickinson report again both of which confirm June's strong religious beliefs/faith.  On this basis and given June walked from her side of the bed to NB's and back I'm convinced she reached for her bible, carried it with her and dropped it in the vicinity it was found.

14. June Bamber was also 61 years old. Religion had always played a strong part in her life. In her latter years her interest in this regard had to an extent come to dominate her thinking, to a point that might have been thought to be obsessive. In 1982, she received treatment at a psychiatric hospital in Northampton.

Because June dropped numerous blood spots onto the floor, there must have been more of the same, as well as smears and/or bloody prints on the bible through handling, whether on the outside or inside had she carried it around the room... but the book is relatively free of them. Only what I believe to be a palm print and a couple of spots on the two inside pages, but none at all on the blue cover. No... the book was taken by the killer from its usual bedside cabinet position, or from June's side of the bed if she had been reading it, and deliberately placed face down on Sheila's arm after she was shot to death.

[Holly Goodhead]

Because June dropped numerous blood spots onto the floor, there must have been more of the same, as well as smears and/or bloody prints on the bible through handling, whether on the outside or inside had she carried it around the room... but the book is relatively free of them. Only what I believe to be a palm print and a couple of spots on the two inside pages, but none at all on the blue cover. No... the book was taken by the killer from its usual bedside cabinet position, or from June's side of the bed if she had been reading it, and deliberately placed face down on Sheila's arm after she was shot to death.

Yes June did drop numerous blood spots onto the floor but this may well have been from the GSW she sustained to her knee.  The bullet exited so the potential for blood to leak onto the floor from this injury was effectively front and back. 

I don't know if June was right or left handed?  If right handed she may have been prevented from using this arm due to the GSW she sustained to it.

If I put my guilty hat on (yes I have one) I just can't get my head round JB seeking out the bible to stage on SC.  SC had a long history of mental illness with in-patient psychiatric care there was no need to over complicate with religious fervour.  If JB told officers she was religious I might be able to believe it wearing my guilty hat but he didn't.

[Holly Goodhead]

All June's wounds were to her right side apart from the wound between the eyes which it seems happened after she went round the bed.  If she held the bible in her left arm this might account for lack of any blood staining from June.

[scipio_usmc]

All June's wounds were to her right side apart from the wound between the eyes which it seems happened after she went round the bed.  If she held the bible in her left arm this might account for lack of any blood staining from June.

The Bible was sitting in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila died. There is no way the Bible was sitting there and the blood leaked under it and Sheila's body just happened to fall right next to it.

Moreover, the notion June, Jeremy or anyone else opened the Bible and closed it then dropped it and it happened to open to the same page it previously had been opened to is simply fantasy. Indeed the blood would help keep those specific pages together unless someone intentionally peeled them apart.

Just because June was religious doesn't mean after being seriously wounded that she would pick up the Bible and carry it around. I know many people who are not simply religious in the sense I am but rather fanatical. I can't see any of these fanatics running to grab a Bible to try to read after being shot. In fact much of the fanaticism isn't really about the religion at all but rather so they can feel important or have something to do or to have some purpose. They care about the politics though often petty politics at that.  I don't know whether June was fanatical like them or not.  People who said June was fanatical were people who had no use for religion so are not reliable sources.  Someone like me is in a much better position to assess such.  I go to Church every Sunday and holiday, I usher at those masses.  I am a member of the knights of Columbus so do charitable work with them and also assist with the planning and execution of our Parish's main fundraiser. I am thus pretty active. People who hate religion altogether could consider that fanaticism. I don't go to Church everyday or pray for hours a day as some do. Nor do I get involved in Bible study or the more social aspects I am result oriented only.  Some women in our Parish spend all their waking time involved in Church ministries but a lot of it is social and more about occupying their time. They gossip and have a habit of sticking their noses where they do not belong and trying to control people and things. None of this advances their religious views.  I had a run in with one today after Mass while I was setting up for Baptisms.  I won't give the particulars but her attitude and behavior was not about religion at all but rather her wanting to control things none of her concern and that she didn't even know anything about. 

The men including the priests are very easygoing for the most part and don't make big deals of things except for one fellow usher who is quite stern and says things he should not really say but sometimes it is amusing because he will annoy people who are pains in the ass and you can't help but enjoy seeing them put in their place. He's old so he can get away with it.

Was June one of these politicking pains in the ass? We lack enough info to know but even if she was it would not mean she was necessarily a religious fanatic in the spiritual sense.  The ones more fanatical in the spiritual sense are more introspective and less into the politics generally. The ones obsessed with prayer typically view prayer as obviating their need to take part helping people in other ways. They will say they prayed for them as opposed to lifting a finger to do something in the physical sense.   

My 15 year old niece was present when the lady was screaming at me giving me grief. She told my family what happened and got my mom started- she said she hated working for women it was much easier working for men and why she would never vote for a woman to become president... Then my niece made us laugh saying she could never be a lesbian because she can't stand girls and their petty drama. You never know what is going to pop out of her mouth, she has no filter.   

[Opal]

Could June B have had the bible in her hands at some point during the times she was shot after all?

 Reading TFU  Police C. Woodcock's statement, he says he saw that June B had finger prints on her throat ! A palm print on the bible, finger prints on her throat. &%+((£