A fresh look at Eddie the cadaver dog and those alerts.

[Lace]

I like the way you treat certain pj members words as written in stone and others as rubbsh as it suits plus the Grime [ deleted ] when you have no idea or qualification to do so....you also know eddie was called enhanced because he was trained in real human cadavers instead of pigs therefore "enhancing" his ablities...[ deleted ]

Grime himself said that Eddie couldn't tell the difference between human cadaver and pig cadaver,  so how was that 'enhanced'?

[sadie]

Sorry Robitty, but you haven't been here for the analysis of the dogs and what their alerts mean.

They dont mean anything without forensic confirmation ... and there has been none.

Additionally several alerts have been much criticized.  For example:

1)  the alerts to the car.  Martin Grime had to keep calling Eddie back with a very stern 'here'  and almost guiding him to alert such was Martins persistence in loudly rapping the car in certain places.  The alert is flawed because Keela had already alerted meaning that it was blood from a living person.   When Eddie alerted outside the car * IF * it was to a scent coming from within the car, then the likely hood is that he was alerting again to blood from  a living person.  Not to a cadavar.

2)  The cuddlecat alert inside the villa/ apartment that the Mccanns stayed in later.

Eddie actually played withn cuddlecat, throwing it in the air ... and no alert at that stage.

CC was put in the bottom of a cupboard and Eddie sniffed right by it twice with the door slightly open, but no alert.
A couple of minutes later Martin ordered him to sniff the counter top and suddenly when his nose came close to a pile of folders(Pegasus thinks a pile of clothes) he alerted.  He certainly wasn't alerting to CC because of his proximity to it before.  He was alerting to the pile or the piece of paper on top.  Somehow, it seems, that had become contaminated by the scent of dried living blood or cadavar, or maybe pig / bacon.

Martin claimed that Eddie was alerting to a Cadavar, but he was wrong.

3)  The box of clothes.  I would prefer Ferryman to go thru this with you, but IIRC the clothes had been in the apartment before and ignored by Eddie.  When laid out in the gym after being crudely boxed and taken away, not only did Eddie alert (Very strange as he hadn't before) but he alerted to one of Madeleines younger brothers T shirts.  Too small for Madeleine, but claimed as an alert. 

Very strange that clothes that had caused no alert to Eddie before suddenly were alerted to. 

4)  Blood on/ under the tiles of the sitting room.  I think this blood turned out to be male blood of a man, but if I have remembered that incorrectly, then I am sure someone will correct me.;   Wont you mercury ! 

None of the alerts by Eddie came to anything.  They have been over-blown by Amaral, who at best didn't understand them

As I have said before, without forensic confirmation, these alerts mean nothing.  Also unless Keela has been used alongside Eddie, the alert could be to living person dried blood or to Cadavar


Ferryman is something of an expert on the alerts, as too are others

I have looked again at Eddie alerting around the car door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTF4JTLeOWA  Starting at about 2.45

Somehow I managed to get the images full screen and somehow managed to slow the images down to 0.25 so I got a better view than I had before.m   It seemed to me that Eddie might have been licking the door in about 3 places ... or was he just swallowing?

Same with the Keela image in the boot of the hire car.  She seems to be licking something too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw4Uhoik6qI @7.10 - 7.13ish

Both dogs appear to be licking  (tasty?).  If tasty what would it be?

misty, Pegasus, any chance you can have a look?


PS.
Interestingly to me, these last few seconds shown of Keela in the car, licking at something have been faded out of the video in the Mccann files @www.mccannfiles.com 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EH[Name removed]pXii9o#t=114 at about 1.28

And even more interesting is that on an earlier even fuller video, on an previous forum that i was on, I drew attention to the fact that Keela seemed to swallow something.  Some on here might just remember my mentioning it

So swallowing (eating a morsel?) has gone completely off both videos and also Keela licking vanished off the video most people would look at from the mccann files.  &%+((£  Hmmmm?



Only yesterday, now wiped I see, I mentioned about anything that vanished off the internet being of special interest. 

Why vanish things?   Is something being hidden?

There has to be a reason   &%+((£  Hmmmm ?

[mercury]

first its not a she its a he
Keela (she)is a blood dog, eddies (he) the cadaver one
And no he never alerted to any foodstuffs

[sadie]

first its not a she its a he
Keela (she)is a blood dog, eddies (he) the cadaver one
And no he never alerted to any foodstuffs

Dont know where, but sometime we were told that Eddie could identify a cadavar even if it was badly burned.

Eddie was trained on dead pig cadavar

Fill in the dots yourself ..............


ETA.

Eddie alerts to cadavar AND to blood

[mercury]

Grime himself said that Eddie couldn't tell the difference between human cadaver and pig cadaver,  so how was that 'enhanced'?

You will have to remind me where he said that and when

Obviously if a cadaver dog is trained on piglets whch are the bearest to human cadaver odour we are told then usng real human cadavers will strengthen and condition the dogs sense

Iyswim

I thnk we have moved way past eddie alerting to dead pigs whch dont actually happen to be strewn around holiday resorts

[sadie]

You will have to remind me where he said that and when

Obviously if a cadaver dog is trained on piglets whch are the bearest to human cadaver odour we are told then usng real human cadavers will strengthen and condition the dogs sense

Iyswim

I thnk we have moved way past eddie alerting to dead pigs whch dont actually happen to be strewn around holiday resorts

But Eddie had never trained on human cadavars (at that stage anyhow).

A bacon sarnie is dead pig,, so why may Eddie not have alerted to it?

[mercury]

But Eddie had never trained on human cadavars (at that stage anyhow).

A bacon sarnie is dead pig,, so why may Eddie not have alerted to it?

Im not sure whenhe traned at the body farm, PF might know,I thought it was before 2007, must have been to be in hs cv presented to the pj at the time, as for bacon and processed foods it just isnt the same as decomposing rotting pig bodies sadie

[sadie]

Im not sure whenhe traned at the body farm, PF might know,I thought it was before 2007, must have been to be in hs cv presented to the pj at the time, as for bacon and processed foods it just isnt the same as decomposing rotting pig bodies sadie

Pork is dead and it is hung.  My understanding is that cadervine starts showing itself an hour or two after death

[Robittybob1]

Pork is dead and it is hung.  My understanding is that cadervine starts showing itself an hour or two after death

Badly chilled pig carcases could have a hint of putrefaction.

[Brietta]

You will have to remind me where he said that and when

Obviously if a cadaver dog is trained on piglets whch are the bearest to human cadaver odour we are told then usng real human cadavers will strengthen and condition the dogs sense

Iyswim

I thnk we have moved way past eddie alerting to dead pigs whch dont actually happen to be strewn around holiday resorts

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.

> The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.
That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm


According to Martin Grime, Victim Recovery Dogs trained solely using human remains alert to pig without exception.

[sadie]

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.

> The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.
That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm


According to Martin Grime, Victim Recovery Dogs trained solely using human remains alert to pig without exception.

WOW !   Brietta !  That is some find !   Straight from Martin Grimes mouth.



So there we have it.

Eddie did alert to pig as well as human cadavar

[pathfinder73]

All cadaver dogs alert to that medium and it has no relevance to this case.

"When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium."

[John]

Grime himself said that Eddie couldn't tell the difference between human cadaver and pig cadaver,  so how was that 'enhanced'?

Having worked with dogs over many years it is worth noting that it is not the dog who can't tell the difference but the handler. All sniffer dogs, be they a tracker dog, a CSI dog or a cadaver dog can most certainly differentiate between different odours but the animal cannot relay that information to its handler if it doesn't know how.  The fault is with the inadequate training, not the dog.

The big disadvantage in the UK was that under our Laws,  trainers were refused access to train dogs on real human cadavers so instead had to use a pig equivalent or a piece of human bone.  This in my opinion was the root of the problem, as always the US has led the way in this field with their CSI body farms etc...

[Alice Purjorick]

I love it [exclamation marks to the power of plenty].
"Supporters" have been telling us for the duration of doggy threads that Mr Grime is a cad and a bounder whose word is worth nothing but now he is being quoted as a "sauce".
Gimme more I am short of laughs this week...

[John]

But Eddie had never trained on human cadavars (at that stage anyhow).

A bacon sarnie is dead pig,, so why may Eddie not have alerted to it?

He probably did, but a lot depends on how much the bacon is cooked I suppose.