Author Topic: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?  (Read 50486 times)

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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2016, 09:12:37 AM »

This note from the translator  - would strongly suggest that translating the statements was not exactly a walk in the park.

QUOTE
905 to 917 Witness statement of Matthew David Oldfield 2007.05.10
918-Consent for mouth swab for Matthew David Oldfield
TRANSLATION BY ALBYM
 
04-Processo 04 Page 905 to 917
 
 
[M Oldfield's  Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese.      I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield.

If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
End quote


Surely the only reason the McCanns would have the files translated by professionals is because of inaccuracies.
One mistranslated word can change the whole meaning of a sentence.

Another example of how translating and retranslating can produce errors is mentioned in Kate's book about her diary which was translated from English to Portuguese and then back to English.

Quote

''I was really upset'' had become ''I was fed up''

''I never felt that relaxed''  had become  'I'd never felt so relaxed''
Unquote

In that last example by changing just two  little words i.e.

''that'' to ''so'' 

and

''I'' to ''I'd'' ..... means that the opposite meaning of what she had really said was wrongly conveyed to the reader.
When I got assaulted, the police constable did not conduct an interview that was recorded.  Nor did he write my statement as a 100% accurate record of what I literally said.  Indeed, in that statement, there was nothing in the format 'SIL said that ...'.  It was a non-verbatim account of what had happened.

I was then asked to read the statement, and sign if I agreed it was accurate.

The procedure involved in Portugal is, for some, one step more complex than this, purely due to the fact that certain people don't speak Portuguese.  In that case translation is needed.

Does Portuguese use identical structures to English?  Of course not, that is why it is a foreign language.  The acid test is still whether anyone complained that their statement, signed by them as being accurate, was in fact in error.

I am not going to go down the diary route unless someone persuades me it was entered into evidence, which I understand it was not.  I have no recollection of Kate signing a translation of her diary to say it was accurate.
What's up, old man?

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2016, 09:29:01 AM »
Actually, anyone who has studied the files does know the answer to this.  As I stated earlier (not twice translated so it should have got through) there is but one instance of a person reporting an error in a previous statement, and that was a minor error.

To repeat, if you claim the PJ made a pig's ear of the statements there should be multiple serious errors of omission and/or commission.  It's up to you to provide the instances of this.

To date, you have studiously avoided doing so, thus I can be confident the this 'pig's ear' exists only in your imagination.
So what you're claiming is that in the thousands upon thousands of pages of statements taken, there is only one reported mistake?!  Well then that makes the PJ 99.99999999% accurate, so not far off the 100% you claimed they shouldn't aspire to.  Amazing!

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2016, 09:49:54 AM »
So what you're claiming is that in the thousands upon thousands of pages of statements taken, there is only one reported mistake?!  Well then that makes the PJ 99.99999999% accurate, so not far off the 100% you claimed they shouldn't aspire to.  Amazing!
No, it doesn't.

I said I am aware of a single instance where a person claims that a previous statement was in error (due to omission/commission).

The files are replete with errors, notably impossibilities of timings, but that is because the statement giver got it wrong, not the statement taker.

If you think there is more than one reported mistake, then ....

 *&*%£
What's up, old man?

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2016, 09:54:36 AM »
No, it doesn't.

I said I am aware of a single instance where a person claims that a previous statement was in error (due to omission/commission).

The files are replete with errors, notably impossibilities of timings, but that is because the statement giver got it wrong, not the statement taker.

If you think there is more than one reported mistake, then ....

 *&*%£
We're talking about errors in statement taking, not errors in witness recollection, but you knew that already...

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2016, 10:36:12 AM »
We're talking about errors in statement taking, not errors in witness recollection, but you knew that already...

Alleged, not proved.
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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2016, 11:07:15 AM »
We're talking about errors in statement taking, not errors in witness recollection, but you knew that already...

Which alleged errors are you referring to ?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2016, 11:21:24 AM »
We're talking about errors in statement taking, not errors in witness recollection, but you knew that already...
I certainly did, as the post of mine that you quoted made clear.

So, just how many errors in statement taking do you know of?

This seems to be a tough question to answer for those using the 'twice translated non-verbatim' argument, judging by the total lack of examples raised so far.
What's up, old man?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2016, 12:17:59 PM »
I certainly did, as the post of mine that you quoted made clear.

So, just how many errors in statement taking do you know of?

This seems to be a tough question to answer for those using the 'twice translated non-verbatim' argument, judging by the total lack of examples raised so far.

We had a whole thread on this topic at one time.
The answer came up a lemon. It looks like history is about to repeat itself.... 8(0(*
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2016, 01:57:01 PM »
I certainly did, as the post of mine that you quoted made clear.

So, just how many errors in statement taking do you know of?

This seems to be a tough question to answer for those using the 'twice translated non-verbatim' argument, judging by the total lack of examples raised so far.

its an impossible question to answer because we have no accurate record of what the mccanns actually said.
what is blindingly obvious is  that a non verbatim twice trannslated statement will be prone to errors and your refusal to accept that simple fact is making you look rather silly

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2016, 02:01:33 PM »
I certainly did, as the post of mine that you quoted made clear.

So, just how many errors in statement taking do you know of?

This seems to be a tough question to answer for those using the 'twice translated non-verbatim' argument, judging by the total lack of examples raised so far.
I'm happy to suspend disbelief and agree with you that out of millions of transcribed words there is literally only one mistake in the whole lot, because if you say it's so, it must be so, yar?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2016, 02:01:41 PM »
its an impossible question to answer because we have no accurate record of what the mccanns actually said.
what is blindingly obvious that a non verbatim twice trannslated statement will be prone to errors and your refusal to accept that simple fact is making you look rather silly

As witness statement in PT cannot be used in court, they only exist to allow the PJ to form an opinion of what happened. I don't think it is SiL who is looking silly.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2016, 02:04:43 PM »
As witness statement in PT cannot be used in court, they only exist to allow the PJ to form an opinion of what happened. I don't think it is SiL who is looking silly.

how can the pj form an opinion of what happeneed if the statemnt is not accurate.....I think it is not just sil looking silly

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2016, 02:33:39 PM »
its an impossible question to answer because we have no accurate record of what the mccanns actually said.
what is blindingly obvious is  that a non verbatim twice trannslated statement will be prone to errors and your refusal to accept that simple fact is making you look rather silly
What we have is a system prescribed by Portuguese law and deployed in Portugal for those who do not speak Portuguese, and to say the PJ made a pig's ear of the statements is indefensible.

The various witnesses signed to confirm that what was in the statements was what they said. When people did multiple statements, they were asked if previous statements were correct, with no complaints.  Despite all the defences deployed by Kate in her book, I cannot remember her claiming that any statement was incorrect, even though she had access to a professionally translated copy of the PJ Files.

The only people making out there is an issue with the statements seem to be using an unproven fact to bash the PJ, possibly with the aim of deflecting criticism from the McCanns.

All without an iota of evidence.
What's up, old man?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2016, 02:40:42 PM »
I'm happy to suspend disbelief and agree with you that out of millions of transcribed words there is literally only one mistake in the whole lot, because if you say it's so, it must be so, yar?
When I said you played silly games, I did not expect another one so soon.

You know full well I did not claim there is only mistake in those statements where an interpreter was used, so why make it appear that I did?

I take it you can't come up with further examples either.

 8((()*/
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2016, 04:19:27 PM »
What we have is a system prescribed by Portuguese law and deployed in Portugal for those who do not speak Portuguese, and to say the PJ made a pig's ear of the statements is indefensible.

The various witnesses signed to confirm that what was in the statements was what they said. When people did multiple statements, they were asked if previous statements were correct, with no complaints.  Despite all the defences deployed by Kate in her book, I cannot remember her claiming that any statement was incorrect, even though she had access to a professionally translated copy of the PJ Files.

The only people making out there is an issue with the statements seem to be using an unproven fact to bash the PJ, possibly with the aim of deflecting criticism from the McCanns.

All without an iota of evidence.

It is a fact that there will be mistakes in twice translated non verbatim statements. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded