Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?

[G-Unit]

i doubt any of these statements could be produced in court as they were non arguido

If you can find a cite supporting your opinion your doubts may be worth considering. Statements are made at various stages of an investigation, pre and post arguido. The term 'statements' suggests both are included or there would be a distinction.

[Robittybob1]

Did you find your cite davel that proves signed police statements by foreigners are legally worthless?

NO didnt thnk so, in future dont state things as facts without proof, ta,

In NZ they have provisions in the Evidence Act for translations:

Subsection 135 Translations and transcripts
(1)
A party may offer a document that purports to be a translation into English of a document in a language other than English, or a translation into Māori of a document in a language other than Māori, if—
(a)
notice is given to all other parties in sufficient time before the hearing to provide those other parties with a fair opportunity to scrutinise the translation; and
(b)
all other requirements prescribed in regulations made under section 201 concerning that document are satisfied.

So that must mean the statement is taken in your native language.  Would they not have similar provision in Portugal?

[Mr Gray]

i have looked at a statement given by a native portuguese speaker . The final paragraph...reads ratifies and signs is exactly the same wording as on the McCanns statements. So on the instruction of the pj the mcCanns signed confirming they had read the statement...that is a falsehood

[ferryman]

i have looked at a statement given by a native portuguese speaker . The final paragraph...reads ratifies and signs is exactly the same wording as on the McCanns statements. So on the instruction of the pj the mcCanns signed confirming they had read the statement...that is a falsehood

Correct!

Unless the McCanns can read Portuguese (which I'm confident they can't).

The statement at the conclusion of each statement taken would only be true of those who either are Portuguese or have the language as a second one (if not native Portuguese).

It is a pity that some people see flagging up this anomaly as somehow 'xenophobic'.  I don't think (at least the majority of us) who raise this point are attempting to bash the Portuguese at all, or even decry their efforts.

Certainly I am not.  I think the Portuguese pulled out all the stops in an effort to conduct an honest enquiry and I also think there was some (genuinely excellent) police work (on the Portuguese side) in the enquiry.

I have long acknowledged that.

I also think the potential for loss or misinterpretation of information (from translation issues) was considerable, and should not be underestimated.

[Robittybob1]

The same thing would apply to all the English speaking statement givers where their statement was written in Portuguese and they were not able to read Portuguese and signed their statement.  I still think we need to see what the official procedures were in Portugal.  Two other countries mentioned in this thread take the foreign language statements in the Native language and they are later translated. 

[slartibartfast]

If they signed something to say they read something and agreed with it and hadn't, that is lying. A certain PJ policemen was convicted of the same.

Of course in the real world they were read an officially translated version of it so could sign it truthfully.

[G-Unit]

In her book Kate says;

We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted
to have every detail we could remember registered properly.

This is the reason she gives for making statements to CRG on 13th May.

On 4th May, however they were met at the police station by two members of the British Consular staff. The British Ambassador also arrived from Lisbon. When they left the police station Angela Morado, the proconsul was with them. Waiting in their apartment were John Buck, Bill Henderson, Liz Dow and Andy Bowes. All British Embassy or Consul staff. Then three family liaison officers arrived from LP. During the following days they saw the FLO's every day and were visited again by John Buck and Bill Henderson. Gerry spoke to John Buck and Margaret Beckett;

He pleaded with them both to try to improve the way the investigation and the search were being handled. We needed it to be far better than this, he told them.
[Madeleine]

If the McCanns were unhappy about their statements, why did they not seek advice from this long list of people who were available during that first week? Any one of those listed could have helped them to act on their concerns.

[Brietta]

So how do the police know who is innocent?

That is not for the police to decide.  It is for the courts.  The job of the police is to gather enough evidence to get a suspect before a judge and a jury for them to decide the rights and the wrongs of the case as argued by prosecution and defence lawyers.
All in accordance with the law of the land not within the pages of a penny dreadful 'whodunnittheparentsofcourse' as decided by the man who found no evidence to bring anyone to trial, let alone at the time asking the right questions of the right people who had until 2013 to cover their tracks.

[Mr Gray]

In her book Kate says;

We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police, especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not sufficiently thorough and wanted
to have every detail we could remember registered properly.

This is the reason she gives for making statements to CRG on 13th May.

On 4th May, however they were met at the police station by two members of the British Consular staff. The British Ambassador also arrived from Lisbon. When they left the police station Angela Morado, the proconsul was with them. Waiting in their apartment were John Buck, Bill Henderson, Liz Dow and Andy Bowes. All British Embassy or Consul staff. Then three family liaison officers arrived from LP. During the following days they saw the FLO's every day and were visited again by John Buck and Bill Henderson. Gerry spoke to John Buck and Margaret Beckett;

He pleaded with them both to try to improve the way the investigation and the search were being handled. We needed it to be far better than this, he told them.
[Madeleine]

If the McCanns were unhappy about their statements, why did they not seek advice from this long list of people who were available during that first week? Any one of those listed could have helped them to act on their concerns.

so we have confirmation that Kate expressed concern about the standard of translation...thank you

[Robittybob1]

If they signed something to say they read something and agreed with it and hadn't, that is lying. A certain PJ policemen was convicted of the same.

Of course in the real world they were read an officially translated version of it so could sign it truthfully.

The problem with that method was that it is the same person doing the translation and reading the translation back in English can repeat the same mistake twice.  It really needs to verified by an independent translator.  There is far too much dependency on the correctness of just one translator in this situation that was occurring in this case.
I'll be very surprised if it followed the official procedures.

[Mr Gray]

The innaccuracies in the statements are one of the biggest sticks with which to beat the McCanns
it is very hard for the sceptics to accept the discrepancies are caused by poor translation

[Brietta]

Going off topic, explains a lot about the Cipriano case.

I'm not sure you have gone off topic there.

Goncalo Amaral's hands were tied when it came to the previous missing child case he and his team had worked and Madeleine McCann's case.

Just as Scotland Yard have taken home invasions which occurred throughout the region very seriously indeed the fact that another child went missing in a neighbouring town was worthy of a closer look when Madeleine too disappeared.

We have all seen the fictional TV detectives in front of maps which pinpoint similar incidents which may or may not be related to the case under investigation.  I believe something similar happens in real life casework.
Not in this case though, without calling attention to the fact there may have been a miscarriage of justice in one.

The solution to that appears not to have been a positive one of looking for two children missing a few miles apart who might very well still have been alive ... but to set the stage based on poorly understood forensic work to ensure a second miscarriage of justice.

So in my opinion ... not in the slightest "off topic" as I think it goes a long way to understanding the misinterpretation of the evidence when a comparison of both cases with the same lead detective in charge is made.

[Robittybob1]

The innaccuracies in the statements are one of the biggest sticks with which to beat the McCanns
it is very hard for the sceptics to accept the discrepancies are caused by poor translation

Exactly, if the statements were taken in English for English speakers then we would all have a reference to fall back on to read, but now we haven't and there could be errors due to both causes and one can't tell which is which.

[stephen25000]

Exactly, if the statements were taken in English for English speakers then we would all have a reference to fall back on to read, but now we haven't and there could be errors due to both causes and one can't tell which is which.

It really doesn't matter one whit what anyone thinks about the statements.

The only matter of interest now is the forthcoming judgement of the Portuguese Supreme Court.

That will effectively decide the fate of the Mccanns.

[Brietta]

Correct!

Unless the McCanns can read Portuguese (which I'm confident they can't).

The statement at the conclusion of each statement taken would only be true of those who either are Portuguese or have the language as a second one (if not native Portuguese).

It is a pity that some people see flagging up this anomaly as somehow 'xenophobic'.  I don't think (at least the majority of us) who raise this point are attempting to bash the Portuguese at all, or even decry their efforts.

Certainly I am not.  I think the Portuguese pulled out all the stops in an effort to conduct an honest enquiry and I also think there was some (genuinely excellent) police work (on the Portuguese side) in the enquiry.

I have long acknowledged that.

I also think the potential for loss or misinterpretation of information (from translation issues) was considerable, and should not be underestimated.

A succinct post, Ferryman.

It is appreciated by most that the work carried out by the Portuguese on behalf of Madeleine was outstanding, with many officers working above and beyond the call of duty.