Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?

[slartibartfast]

I'm not sure you have gone off topic there.

Goncalo Amaral's hands were tied when it came to the previous missing child case he and his team had worked and Madeleine McCann's case.

Just as Scotland Yard have taken home invasions which occurred throughout the region very seriously indeed the fact that another child went missing in a neighbouring town was worthy of a closer look when Madeleine too disappeared.

We have all seen the fictional TV detectives in front of maps which pinpoint similar incidents which may or may not be related to the case under investigation.  I believe something similar happens in real life casework.
Not in this case though, without calling attention to the fact there may have been a miscarriage of justice in one.

The solution to that appears not to have been a positive one of looking for two children missing a few miles apart who might very well still have been alive ... but to set the stage based on poorly understood forensic work to ensure a second miscarriage of justice.

So in my opinion ... not in the slightest "off topic" as I think it goes a long way to understanding the misinterpretation of the evidence when a comparison of both cases with the same lead detective in charge is made.

It explains the use of her statements in court.

[slartibartfast]

I disagree with your priority Stephen.

In my opinion the only matter of interest now is how the search for Madeleine has progressed and if the PJ and SY are any closer to resolution.
We know it is considered Madeleine may still be alive and it is known that leads are still being followed.

What will decide "the fate of the McCanns" as you so melodramatically put it lies not in the appeal courts but in the fate of their daughter.
In my opinion whatever the ruling ... it is way down the line in priority when it comes to Madeleine and the distance her case has been allowed to travel thanks to the efforts of her parents.

I don't think many considered legal action a priority.

[Benice]

If they signed something to say they read something and agreed with it and hadn't, that is lying. A certain PJ policemen was convicted of the same.

Of course in the real world they were read an officially translated version of it so could sign it truthfully.

I'm assuming that ''Reads, ratifies and signs'' was also typed in Portuguese -  and so not necessarily understood at the time of signing?

After hours of interrogation - with every word having to be translated and retranslated- and with every  question and answer having to be typed up by the PJ officer -  it's not rocket science IMO to assume that all involved were pretty tired by the end of the session. 

There is a vast difference between listening to a long statement  being read out to you by someone else at THEIR pace, and probably with a foreign accent -  and reading a statement, written in your own language and at YOUR  pace - when written mistakes would be far more easier to spot.

I have no doubt that mistakes were made  - but no-one is to blame for that IMO.  There is no such thing as a perfect human being - no matter what their profession is. 

AIMHO

[G-Unit]

so we have confirmation that Kate expressed concern about the standard of translation...thank you

We have confirmation that Kate said in her book, published in 2011 that she and her husband had concerns in early May 2007 about the standard of translation.

That doesn't mean she did have concerns at that time, it means she said she did.

[Alfie]

We have confirmation that Kate said in her book, published in 2011 that she and her husband had concerns in early May 2007 about the standard of translation.

That doesn't mean she did have concerns at that time, it means she said she did.

You seem to be impugning Kate McCann here, any reason for that?

[G-Unit]

Does anyone else find it strange that some people complain about the translations of the PJ files but accept the twice translated version of Amaral's book as truth?

[Alfie]

Does anyone else find it strange that some people complain about the translations of the PJ files but accept the twice translated version of Amaral's book as truth?

Who does that?  There's bound to be a few translation errors in it. 

[John]

For info.  This is a new thread, relevant posts are still being transferred into it from other topics.

[G-Unit]

You seem to be impugning Kate McCann here, any reason for that?

I was pointing out the facts. A quote from early May 2007 expressing concern about the statement translations would support what Kate said four years later. Unfortunately I couldn't find one; I did try.

So it's down to ABC.
[Assume Nothing, Believe no-one, Challenge Everything]

[John]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htmIf the original statement was written in English then translated into Portuguese and both the translation and the original signed that would be better than the verbal English statement being translated into a written Portuguese statement.

When the statements are read back to the witness in English they have the opportunity to correct any incorrect entry or omission, that is the whole point of the process.  I must say that when I found myself in a similar position in Spain 13 years ago I did find the initial extradition hearing thoroughly confusing when even the lady translator couldn't translate some of the legal jargon into English.  Several months later I wasn't being asked to sign a statement but an extradition Order consenting to the process. That was correctly translated into English at the time but later was retranslated by the COPFS in Edinburgh to give a different meaning to that agreed in Madrid. 

I also found out later that the original extradition request was altered during translation after having been signed by the Solicitor General for Scotland.  These issues are currently the subject of an appeal to the Supreme Court in Scotland, I will be updating the relevant threads in due course.

[Alfie]

I was pointing out the facts. A quote from early May 2007 expressing concern about the statement translations would support what Kate said four years later. Unfortunately I couldn't find one; I did try.

So it's down to ABC.
[Assume Nothing, Believe no-one, Challenge Everything]

Why do you think it doubtful that the McCanns had concerns about the standard of translations back in May 2007 and how do you suppose they should have communicated those concerns publicly at the time, bearing in mind they were bound by judicial secrecy, and why would they have felt it necessary to publicly voice these concerns anyway?  Do you imagine that every thought that went through their heads at the time should have become a matter of public record?

[John]

I would say the procedure in Portugal were as sound as they get and are still being used today. Where a foreigner is being formally interviewed with a view to ultimately signing a statement, the principal document is the Portuguese version signed by the person being interviewed.  This must be accompanied by a translated version also signed by the person being interviewed and additionally a signed affidavit by the translator confirming the translation.  As long as the foreigner understands what they have signed I see no difficulty.  All three documents are legal entities and can be relied on in court.

[Alice Purjorick]

Why do you think it doubtful that the McCanns had concerns about the standard of translations back in May 2007 and how do you suppose they should have communicated those concerns publicly at the time, bearing in mind they were bound by judicial secrecy, and why would they have felt it necessary to publicly voice these concerns anyway?  Do you imagine that every thought that went through their heads at the time should have become a matter of public record?

Members of the British Consuls staff had made themselves known to Drs McCann.
What's wrong with the direct approach?
Call the the Consul's office on the phone and say " 'ere John I am less than happy about the translation of the  statements I have given to the police what can be done?". Easy old stuff unease recorded, no breach of judicial secrecy no excess publicity and help being sought in the right place.

[Benice]

Does anyone else find it strange that some people complain about the translations of the PJ files but accept the twice translated version of Amaral's book as truth?

Not so G.  There are times in my posts when I have mentioned the possibility of errors in translation  regarding the content of his book.

[ferryman]

Not so G.  There are times in my posts when I have mentioned the possibility of errors in translation  regarding the content of his book.

Carana drives me mad with her close semantic analysis of translations of Amaral's book.

I (grudgingly) concede that she (usually) has a point, though ....