Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?

[ShiningInLuz]

There would be two types of translators as far as I can see. 
1.  Those used in Portugal to produce documents in the file. (Official)
2.  Those employed to translate the Portuguese file into English so the McCanns can read it. (Non official)

There is at least a 3rd type, which is those translators who tried to chunk through the PJ Files as an amateur translator, and upon whose mistakes many a supposition has been based in English.

I am not knocking this type of translator.  If your native language is English, it is a lot easier to start in the English versions of statements.

 But it helps if you can check with the Portuguese.

[Robittybob1]

There is at least a 3rd type, which is those translators who tried to chunk through the PJ Files as an amateur translator, and upon whose mistakes many a supposition has been based in English.

I am not knocking this type of translator.  If your native language is English, it is a lot easier to start in the English versions of statements.

 But it helps if you can check with the Portuguese.

I would need of an example of what you are talking about.  I think it would be true of any translation that there would NOT be only one possible meaning to be got from it.  I noticed Pegasus was quite fluent in at least reading Portuguese and giving it an English meaning but I'm not sure if he could go the other way around.
So would those who translate isolated phases be a 4th type of translator?

[G-Unit]

Using Google to translate demonstrates that it's a difficult exercise. Any translator has to strive to reproduce the intended meaning. Word for word translations produce gobble-de-gook.

[Robittybob1]

In 2007 it would have been normal practice to record the interviews in Portuguese, them being subsequently translated into English for the benefit of the witnesses and the English police.  So the Portuguese language versions we have access to are the original verbatim versions surely?

I am surprised you find this acceptable John.  We need to see what the Portuguese law expects of their officers to do when faced with a person who can't speak Portuguese.

[Robittybob1]

I would say the procedure in Portugal were as sound as they get and are still being used today. Where a foreigner is being formally interviewed with a view to ultimately signing a statement, the principal document is the Portuguese version signed by the person being interviewed.  This must be accompanied by a translated version also signed by the person being interviewed and additionally a signed affidavit by the translator confirming the translation.  As long as the foreigner understands what they have signed I see no difficulty.  All three documents are legal entities and can be relied on in court.

But isn't this the part that is missing from the the McCann files. All those signed English versions produced at the time of the interview are non existent.

[Robittybob1]

"The right to interpretation and translation in Criminal
Proceedings: the situation in Portugal
Sandra Silva ∗"
http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf

Preliminaries
Conceptualization: interpretation v. translation
Despite the lack of distinction in the Portuguese law, interpretation and translation are
not identical intellectual operations. Translations are written, as opposed to interpretations,
which are oral.
A court interpreter is a ‘language mediator’ or ‘language conduit’ whose presence
allows a person who does not speak or understand Portuguese to meaningfully participate
in the judicial proceedings.10 The proper role of an interpreter is to place the
non-Portuguese-speaker, as closely as is linguistically possible, in the same situation as
the Portuguese speaker in a legal setting.11
A translator uses different skills than a court interpreter. A translator converts a
written document or audiotape recording from the source language (SL) into a written
document in the target language (TL). However, the court interpreter performs in some
IAFL Porto 2012 Proceedings
S. Silva 89
situations as a translator – e.g. when he or she sight translates documents presented
during the hearing.12

With regard specifically to the quality of interpretation and translation, the ECtHR
states that through interpreters and translators the accused or suspected persons must
simply be put in position to understand the case against them and to defend themselves,
in particular by putting their version of events before the court (Hermi v. Italy (2006)).

[Robittybob1]

Also https://www.fairtrials.org/arrested-abroad/arrested-in/arrested-in-portuga/ seems to be emphasis on understanding the process in your own language.

[G-Unit]

The Portuguese Code of Criminal Procedure guarantees the right to interpretation to any
procedural participant (defendant, accused, suspect, victim, witness, expert, etc.) whose
primary language is not Portuguese and who has a limited ability to read, speak, write
or understand Portuguese.
http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf


There is, of course, a difference between interpreters and translators;

Despite the lack of distinction in the Portuguese law, interpretation and translation are
not identical intellectual operations. Translations are written, as opposed to interpretations,
which are oral.
http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf

The interpreters interpreted. They didn't translate.

It takes more skill to interpret than it does to translate because it's immediate and requires in depth knowledge of both languages;
http://www.notatranslators.org/whatsthedifference.aspx

Portuguese law subjects interpreters to an expert’s activity rules (Art. 92, 8, making
applicable Arts. 153 and 162). The interpreter must therefore be ‘sworn’, i.e. he or she
must solemnly promise the judicial authorities (judge or prosecutor) to make a faithful,
accurate and impartial interpretation (Art. 91, 2).

, in Portugal there is neither an official certifcation or registration for
interpreters nor a mechanism to easily assess the quality of the interpreter’s performance.
Because those aspects are totally neglected in the Portuguese legislation, some
courts routinely allow untrained, non-professional bilingual individuals, without any
demonstrated competence, to act as interpreters (including neighborhood grocers).

Despite problems and limitations, one may share an optimistic opinion about the
national interpretation and translation panorama – it may be said that in Portugal the
matter is ‘open to interpretation’, much more than ‘lost in translation’.

http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf

Once the McCanns were made arguidos they chose their interpreters themselves from a list provided by the Consulate [I assume the British Consulate]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm





 

[John]

We have asked several times for someone in Portugal to provide us with what the Portuguese law would ask for.  Do they have legislation to follow in Portugal?

The rules change all the time as new guidelines as produced.

[John]

But isn't this the part that is missing from the the McCann files. All those signed English versions produced at the time of the interview are non existent.

Appently so...question is, was there an English language version or did the interpreter simply translate the Portuguese version verbally and the witnesses signed that?

[ShiningInLuz]

The Portuguese Code of Criminal Procedure guarantees the right to interpretation to any
procedural participant (defendant, accused, suspect, victim, witness, expert, etc.) whose
primary language is not Portuguese and who has a limited ability to read, speak, write
or understand Portuguese.
http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf


There is, of course, a difference between interpreters and translators;

Despite the lack of distinction in the Portuguese law, interpretation and translation are
not identical intellectual operations. Translations are written, as opposed to interpretations,
which are oral.
http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf

The interpreters interpreted. They didn't translate.

It takes more skill to interpret than it does to translate because it's immediate and requires in depth knowledge of both languages;
http://www.notatranslators.org/whatsthedifference.aspx

Portuguese law subjects interpreters to an expert’s activity rules (Art. 92, 8, making
applicable Arts. 153 and 162). The interpreter must therefore be ‘sworn’, i.e. he or she
must solemnly promise the judicial authorities (judge or prosecutor) to make a faithful,
accurate and impartial interpretation (Art. 91, 2).

, in Portugal there is neither an official certifcation or registration for
interpreters nor a mechanism to easily assess the quality of the interpreter’s performance.
Because those aspects are totally neglected in the Portuguese legislation, some
courts routinely allow untrained, non-professional bilingual individuals, without any
demonstrated competence, to act as interpreters (including neighborhood grocers).

Despite problems and limitations, one may share an optimistic opinion about the
national interpretation and translation panorama – it may be said that in Portugal the
matter is ‘open to interpretation’, much more than ‘lost in translation’.

http://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/13620.pdf

Once the McCanns were made arguidos they chose their interpreters themselves from a list provided by the Consulate [I assume the British Consulate]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Not wishing to be nit picking, because your post has clarified a great deal, what does one call the person who takes the written or typed statement in Portuguese, and reads it back to the witness/arguido in English?

(I can read Portuguese, more or less, but spoken Portuguese is very difficult to understand for me, unless people speak slowly and keep it simple.)

[G-Unit]

Not wishing to be nit picking, because your post has clarified a great deal, what does one call the person who takes the written or typed statement in Portuguese, and reads it back to the witness/arguido in English?

(I can read Portuguese, more or less, but spoken Portuguese is very difficult to understand for me, unless people speak slowly and keep it simple.)

I don't have a cite, but in this case the interpreters seemed to do that. A translator would have produced a written version in English, wouldn't they? Although the Met seem to expect interpreters to do that too.....

I learned German with a teach yourself book before I went to live there. I could spell it, construct sentences and speak it. It only went wrong when they answered; I hadn't a clue! 

I have never understood why some English people object to other nationalities speaking in their own language. I have heard complaints about Germans speaking German, Scottish Highlanders speaking Gaelic, the Welsh speaking Welsh and immigrants here speaking in their own languages. Often those complaining have assumed the speakers are talking about them; especially if the speakers laughed. Some people are pretty paranoid imo.

[Robittybob1]

Appently so...question is, was there an English language version or did the interpreter simply translate the Portuguese version verbally and the witnesses signed that?

If there is any reason Goncalo Amaral needed to retire is because he messed this part of the case up.  If the case ever went to court the only official statements (IMO) would be the rogatory statements, for they start with a native language statement that is translated into Portuguese.  These would be the only lawful statements the rest would just be called notes.

[G-Unit]

If there is any reason Goncalo Amaral needed to retire is because he messed this part of the case up.  It the case ever went to court the only official statements would be the rogatory statements, for they start with a native language statement that is translated into Portuguese.  These would be the only lawful statements the rest would just be called notes.

I think you should read the files before firing off unfounded accusations.

If correct procedures hadn't been followed I'm sure the Public Prosecutor would have had something to say. He monitored the process from the beginning;

Make a copy of the present files, with a copy of everything that has been processed, as quickly as possible and deliver it to the hand of the Public Prosecutor.

7/5/2007 (17 hours)

Signed

Sandra Marques

[Robittybob1]

I think you should read the files before firing off unfounded accusations.

If correct procedures hadn't been followed I'm sure the Public Prosecutor would have had something to say. He monitored the process from the beginning;

Make a copy of the present files, with a copy of everything that has been processed, as quickly as possible and deliver it to the hand of the Public Prosecutor.

7/5/2007 (17 hours)

Signed

Sandra Marques

That sounded like a patch up of a botched job but was that instruction ever carried out?

It isn't totally unfounded, for we seem to have established the statements needed to have been taken in English (written in the native language) and thereafter translated.