Author Topic: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.  (Read 141241 times)

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Offline sadie

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #180 on: October 02, 2016, 12:17:47 AM »
Sorry Sadie, I wasn't intending to 'pick on' you. I was trying to make the point that assumptions don't really add anything to the debate. To demonstrate that I offered another assumption, different to yours.

As neither can be proved right or wrong using the evidence available both assumptions are useless.
Thanks for the apology Gunit, much appreciated.

I can see nothing wrong with theories or assumptions developed thoughts, if based upon fact, so long as they are clearly labelled as such.  It is called lateral thinking.

Personally, so long as it is identified as such, I cannot see what is wrong with it

Offline sadie

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #181 on: October 02, 2016, 12:29:30 AM »
No idea about Murat's footage but there were no alerts by Eddie.

Dogs get in close to sniff for traces of blood the human eye cannot see. Eddie's behaviour will change straight away when detecting a stronger scent e.g. cadaver scent so he goes in first. If Eddie alerts then the blood dog Keela is used.  At his first alert location no blood was detected by Keela.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant." Martin Grime

Your response is ambiguous.  Did Keela actually go into Murats?  Do you KNOW ?

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #182 on: October 02, 2016, 12:33:21 AM »
Interesting as the interpretation of Mark Harrison's sojourn in Luz is ... it is merely another snapshot of a process of elimination which occurs when police are trying to solve a case or build a case.

Thankfully there was an element of professionalism within the Policia Judiciaria which did not make itself evident in the conduct of the primary investigation which never quite recovered from a very poor start.

For example; why the opinion of an unqualified civilian (Sylvia Batista) that Madeleine's mother's request for a priest constituted grounds for suspicion and was adopted as such by the investigating officers is extraordinary.  What sort of 'proof' of anything let alone the death of a child is that on which to base a case against her parents?

**Snip
6.0. The hypothesis of death is based on the following:
a) The witness Silvia Batista, page 1977, refers that at 3:00hrs, May 4th, the couple asked for a priest, which she found strange since there was at that time any indication that the child was dead, and it is 'under those circumstances that usually the presence of a priest is demanded' (sic).


However the visit of Mark Harrison was just one step in the investigation.  The visit of the specialist English dogs was another.

What is patently obvious to all but the most dogmatic ~ the visit of the dogs was to all intents and purposes a total and complete waste of time, not to mention a distraction from the importance of looking for a living child.
They failed to find Madeleine or any evidence relating to her at all.  They most certainly found no evidence of her death which was evident to the PJ officers who continued working the case by following the evidence, questioning anomalies and waiting for confirmation, just as any competent investigators should.


**Snip
q) This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'

r) These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.

s) It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.

t) In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.

u) From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

v) If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

w) On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

x) Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.


**Snip
e) From the mentioned above, we understand that the following recommendations must be made:
- On the hypothesis that there was death of the child, the results performed by the British Laboratory must be awaited, in order to assert what kind of vestiges were collected and if any of those can lead to the identification of Madeleine McCann's DNA profile.
- To obtain, from the trainers and supervisors of the dogs (ERVD and CSI), further enlightening about the 'marking' and the friability of their work.
- Under the hypothesis of abduction, because there are no vestiges to lead to the author, we propose the waiting for a denounce or testimony that permits to obtain new elements of proof in order to achieve an identification.


PJ-1a-1s Intelligence Analysis Report-05-02-08-PJ-Inspector-Paulo-Dias
File pages 1-3004

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #183 on: October 02, 2016, 12:33:35 AM »
Your response is ambiguous.  Did Keela actually go into Murats?  Do you KNOW ?

Eddie didn't alert at Murat's or in the other apartments so Keela wasn't used. Of course Keela could be used at Murat's if needed.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #184 on: October 02, 2016, 12:55:19 AM »
Eddie didn't alert at Murat's or in the other apartments so Keela wasn't used. Of course Keela could be used at Murat's if needed.
T.Y Pfinder.

Of course Eddie was painstakingly taken thru the Mccann flat 5A and the later flat too, but was whizzed thru all the other flats.  In both Mccann flats and the Mccann car he was repeatedly brought back to sniff and sternly ordered to re-sniff with loud rapping noises and voice commands.

Nothing like that with the other cars.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #185 on: October 02, 2016, 08:23:25 AM »
Please cite Grime quote...

after all this time and all the dog threads are you not aware of this

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #186 on: October 02, 2016, 10:43:59 AM »

grime said no intelligence reliability....thats proof to anyone with intelligence

That could set off a wonderful circular argument.
I may come back later and do just that....................... @)(++(*
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #187 on: October 02, 2016, 11:06:57 AM »
Thanks for the apology Gunit, much appreciated.

I can see nothing wrong with theories or assumptions developed thoughts, if based upon fact, so long as they are clearly labelled as such.  It is called lateral thinking.

Personally, so long as it is identified as such, I cannot see what is wrong with it

I would call it speculation and myth creation when people guess at what hidden meanings the writer is conveying.
That's pretty much how lateral thinking can be described. Why a National Search Adviser would need to write a report with hidden meanings has then to be explained.

A person uses lateral thinking to move from one known idea to creating new ideas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking

The lateral thinker does not use logic to reach conclusions. I'll stick with trying to use logical thinking, thank you.
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #188 on: October 02, 2016, 11:23:46 AM »
after all this time and all the dog threads are you not aware of this

We know about the evidential reliabity it was the intelligence reliability I was interested in.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #189 on: October 02, 2016, 03:28:21 PM »
We know about the evidential reliabity it was the intelligence reliability I was interested in.

I find the strongly worded denials of the usefulness of the alerts by Harrison and Grime interesting.

UK police use dog alerts in other situations as arousing 'reasonable suspicion'. Reasonable suspicion is not, of course, proof.

Suspecting a person of having committed a criminal offence falls a long way short of having demonstrable proof that this is the case
http://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/features/Arrest-Reasonable-Suspicion-and-Court-Appeal

Nevertheless, reasonable suspicion allows further action. If a drug sniffer dog alerts, the person alerted to can then be searched for possession. Without the dog alert they cannot [PACE forbids stopping and searching at random].
http://www.release.org.uk/blog/uk-festivals-sniffer-dogs-their-regulations-your-rights

If alerts by drug detection dogs create reasonable suspicion, it follows that alerts by cadaver dogs do the same. So it can't be said the alerts were meaningless.
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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #190 on: October 02, 2016, 03:37:53 PM »
In complying with these terms I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
 
The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.
It recommended considering re searching:
 
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
- The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
- Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
- Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
- A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

That is, indeed, the key part.

There seems to be little or nothing to suggest that Harrison, personally and directly, had anything to do with those inspections apart from those he, personally, recommended.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #191 on: October 02, 2016, 03:41:37 PM »
That is, indeed, the key part.

There seems to be little or nothing to suggest that Harrison, personally and directly, had anything to do with those inspections apart from those he, personally, recommended.

Except his documented claim that he recommended all the searches which took place, of course. @)(++(*
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ferryman

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Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #192 on: October 02, 2016, 03:46:43 PM »
Except his documented claim that he recommended all the searches which took place, of course. @)(++(*

Claim by whom?

The documented record suggests Harrison (retrospectively and metaphorically) did the equivalent of hold his nose and try to make a bad smell go away (after witnessing those inspections)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 03:48:48 PM by ferryman »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #193 on: October 02, 2016, 04:18:02 PM »
Claim by whom?

The documented record suggests Harrison (retrospectively and metaphorically) did the equivalent of hold his nose and try to make a bad smell go away (after witnessing those inspections)

The claim by Mark Harrison in his final report that he recommended all the searches which took place. It's quite clear.

Suggests? Only to those who are 'reading between the lines' and finding things which exist only in their fertile imaginations.  8((()*/
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ferryman

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Re: Mark Harrison and the searches he recommended and took part in.
« Reply #194 on: October 02, 2016, 04:24:16 PM »
The claim by Mark Harrison in his final report that he recommended all the searches which took place. It's quite clear.

Suggests? Only to those who are 'reading between the lines' and finding things which exist only in their fertile imaginations.  8((()*/

Can I have the exact quote?