Author Topic: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.  (Read 22264 times)

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Alfie

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I'm sick of hearing"sceptic" claim there is no evidence that the alarm was raised at 10pm.  We know why these "sceptics" refuse to accept that the alarm was raised then because it wipes out the notion that Gerry was Smithman.  So, to remind these "sceptics", the PJ's own analysis of ALL the witness statements concluded that Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.  The report I post below has no recommendations concerning getting any greater clarity about this aspect of the timeline.  In other words the PJ accepted this time as fact.   Get over it.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html


This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.

All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)

.............

THE DEPOSITIONS/DECLARATIONS

On the night of May 3, at 20:30h, the McCann were the first to arrive at the “Tapas” restaurant. The other elements of the group kept arriving until 21:00h.

At 21:00h Mathew went to see his daughter. He listened close to rooms of the rest of the children and everything was calm.

At 21:05H/21:10H Gerald went to check his children. He entered through the sliding door and found it strange that the children’s bedroom door was slightly more opened than when they went out. But he assumed that Madeleine had gotten up and gone back to bed.

He saw that Madeleine and the twins were in their beds, quiet.

He went to the bathroom and got out through the sliding doors. On the street, close to the gate, he met Jez, known from the tennis, with whom he spoke for 3 to 5 minutes.

At that moment (21:15h) coming from the restaurant to check her children, Jane passed by them.

She says that at that moment she saw, up the street, on the perpendicular, at about 10 meters, a man crossing carrying a child (see map and photo pags 50/51).

The child was on pajamas and without shoes, but she only found strange the fact that she wasn’t covered.
Only later, after learning about the colors of the pajamas, Jane concluded that the child she says she saw held by the man could be Madeleine.

She didn’t notice if the shutters of Madeleine’s bedroom window were up or down.

Neither Gerald nor Jez noticed Jane’s passage, nor did they see the man carrying the child.

At 21:30h Mathew got out of the “Tapas” to go check his children. He told Kate that he would control her children also.

He entered 5A by the living room sliding door.

He found that in Madeleine’s room, where the twins were also staying, there was more light than normal, it seemed that the shutters were lifted.

He didn’t take notice and just looked into the room through the semi opened door.

He says that he saw the twins in their cots and that everything was calm.

Because Madeleine’s bed was standing to the closest wall he was unable to see her.

At 22:00 Kate went to the apartment.

She went through the sliding doors and immediately noticed that the door to the children’s bedroom was totally opened, the window was opened, the shutters raised and the curtains opened to the sides.

The twins were sleeping in their cots but Madeleine had disappeared.

...........

RECOMENDATIONS/SUGGESTIONS

In relation with the Time Line:

-In order to determine with more exactitude the period when Madeleine was not seen by anyone other but the parents (03-05-2007 – 17h30/18h00 – 20h00), find out if David Payne went to the apartment (at the request of Gerald) at 19h00.

-Clarify if Mathew was in the apartment 5A, at 21h30, how were the curtains, the window and the shutters in the children’s room.

About the chronograms:

-Try to figure out, close to the respective authorities, the identity of the holders of each of the phone numbers mentioned above. Such elements could help clear the facts.


134
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 06:39:19 PM by John »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2016, 06:57:21 PM »
I'm sick of hearing"sceptic" claim there is no evidence that the alarm was raised at 10pm.  We know why these "sceptics" refuse to accept that the alarm was raised then because it wipes out the notion that Gerry was Smithman.  So, to remind these "sceptics", the PJ's own analysis of ALL the witness statements concluded that Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.  The report I post below has no recommendations concerning getting any greater clarity about this aspect of the timeline.  In other words the PJ accepted this time as fact.   Get over it.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html


This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.

All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)

.............

THE DEPOSITIONS/DECLARATIONS

On the night of May 3, at 20:30h, the McCann were the first to arrive at the “Tapas” restaurant. The other elements of the group kept arriving until 21:00h.

At 21:00h Mathew went to see his daughter. He listened close to rooms of the rest of the children and everything was calm.

At 21:05H/21:10H Gerald went to check his children. He entered through the sliding door and found it strange that the children’s bedroom door was slightly more opened than when they went out. But he assumed that Madeleine had gotten up and gone back to bed.

He saw that Madeleine and the twins were in their beds, quiet.

He went to the bathroom and got out through the sliding doors. On the street, close to the gate, he met Jez, known from the tennis, with whom he spoke for 3 to 5 minutes.

At that moment (21:15h) coming from the restaurant to check her children, Jane passed by them.

She says that at that moment she saw, up the street, on the perpendicular, at about 10 meters, a man crossing carrying a child (see map and photo pags 50/51).

The child was on pajamas and without shoes, but she only found strange the fact that she wasn’t covered.
Only later, after learning about the colors of the pajamas, Jane concluded that the child she says she saw held by the man could be Madeleine.

She didn’t notice if the shutters of Madeleine’s bedroom window were up or down.

Neither Gerald nor Jez noticed Jane’s passage, nor did they see the man carrying the child.

At 21:30h Mathew got out of the “Tapas” to go check his children. He told Kate that he would control her children also.

He entered 5A by the living room sliding door.

He found that in Madeleine’s room, where the twins were also staying, there was more light than normal, it seemed that the shutters were lifted.

He didn’t take notice and just looked into the room through the semi opened door.

He says that he saw the twins in their cots and that everything was calm.

Because Madeleine’s bed was standing to the closest wall he was unable to see her.

At 22:00 Kate went to the apartment.

She went through the sliding doors and immediately noticed that the door to the children’s bedroom was totally opened, the window was opened, the shutters raised and the curtains opened to the sides.

The twins were sleeping in their cots but Madeleine had disappeared.

...........

RECOMENDATIONS/SUGGESTIONS

In relation with the Time Line:

-In order to determine with more exactitude the period when Madeleine was not seen by anyone other but the parents (03-05-2007 – 17h30/18h00 – 20h00), find out if David Payne went to the apartment (at the request of Gerald) at 19h00.

-Clarify if Mathew was in the apartment 5A, at 21h30, how were the curtains, the window and the shutters in the children’s room.

About the chronograms:

-Try to figure out, close to the respective authorities, the identity of the holders of each of the phone numbers mentioned above. Such elements could help clear the facts.

All supposition.

They don't know what happened.

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2016, 07:04:19 PM »
All supposition.

They don't know what happened.
Yes they do because there were loads of witnesses, they studied all their statements and they come up with a timeline for which they had no follow- up queries concerning the time of Kate's discovery. 

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2016, 07:06:03 PM »
Yes they do because there were loads of witnesses, they studied all their statements and they come up with a timeline for which they had no follow- up queries concerning the time of Kate's discovery.

Not in the apartment Alfie.

Not until KM raised the alarm.

What happened in the apartment is supposition............... and you know it.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2016, 07:07:00 PM »
I'm sick of hearing"sceptic" claim there is no evidence that the alarm was raised at 10pm.  We know why these "sceptics" refuse to accept that the alarm was raised then because it wipes out the notion that Gerry was Smithman.  So, to remind these "sceptics", the PJ's own analysis of ALL the witness statements concluded that Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.  The report I post below has no recommendations concerning getting any greater clarity about this aspect of the timeline.  In other words the PJ accepted this time as fact.   Get over it.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html


This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.

All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)

.............

THE DEPOSITIONS/DECLARATIONS

On the night of May 3, at 20:30h, the McCann were the first to arrive at the “Tapas” restaurant. The other elements of the group kept arriving until 21:00h.

At 21:00h Mathew went to see his daughter. He listened close to rooms of the rest of the children and everything was calm.

At 21:05H/21:10H Gerald went to check his children. He entered through the sliding door and found it strange that the children’s bedroom door was slightly more opened than when they went out. But he assumed that Madeleine had gotten up and gone back to bed.

He saw that Madeleine and the twins were in their beds, quiet.

He went to the bathroom and got out through the sliding doors. On the street, close to the gate, he met Jez, known from the tennis, with whom he spoke for 3 to 5 minutes.

At that moment (21:15h) coming from the restaurant to check her children, Jane passed by them.

She says that at that moment she saw, up the street, on the perpendicular, at about 10 meters, a man crossing carrying a child (see map and photo pags 50/51).

The child was on pajamas and without shoes, but she only found strange the fact that she wasn’t covered.
Only later, after learning about the colors of the pajamas, Jane concluded that the child she says she saw held by the man could be Madeleine.

She didn’t notice if the shutters of Madeleine’s bedroom window were up or down.

Neither Gerald nor Jez noticed Jane’s passage, nor did they see the man carrying the child.

At 21:30h Mathew got out of the “Tapas” to go check his children. He told Kate that he would control her children also.

He entered 5A by the living room sliding door.

He found that in Madeleine’s room, where the twins were also staying, there was more light than normal, it seemed that the shutters were lifted.

He didn’t take notice and just looked into the room through the semi opened door.

He says that he saw the twins in their cots and that everything was calm.

Because Madeleine’s bed was standing to the closest wall he was unable to see her.

At 22:00 Kate went to the apartment.

She went through the sliding doors and immediately noticed that the door to the children’s bedroom was totally opened, the window was opened, the shutters raised and the curtains opened to the sides.

The twins were sleeping in their cots but Madeleine had disappeared.

...........

RECOMENDATIONS/SUGGESTIONS

In relation with the Time Line:

-In order to determine with more exactitude the period when Madeleine was not seen by anyone other but the parents (03-05-2007 – 17h30/18h00 – 20h00), find out if David Payne went to the apartment (at the request of Gerald) at 19h00.

-Clarify if Mathew was in the apartment 5A, at 21h30, how were the curtains, the window and the shutters in the children’s room.

About the chronograms:

-Try to figure out, close to the respective authorities, the identity of the holders of each of the phone numbers mentioned above. Such elements could help clear the facts.

Unfortunately you may do a "Violet Elizabeth" if you wish, the fact remaisn no one knows what happened.
That about sums it up.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2016, 07:17:09 PM »
Quote
I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

Geronimo Salcedas.

Admittedly a different time was given in his interview with the PJ, but the rogatory will have been taken verbatim

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2016, 07:18:18 PM »
A reminder about this timeline, who contirbuted to it, and who analysed it:

This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.

All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)


Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2016, 07:22:27 PM »
Geronimo Salcedas.

Admittedly a different time was given in his interview with the PJ, but the rogatory will have been taken verbatim
The police who put together the timeline would have been aware of his statement - why was there no follow up recommendation in the report to clarify it, if  there was any concern that his timing was correct and everyone else's was wrong?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2016, 07:22:47 PM »
We got that the first time around.


Edit: this should hve come after the "reminder" post   ?{)(**
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 07:24:53 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2016, 07:25:37 PM »
It seems most "sceptic" theories rely heavily on Smithman being Gerry - how about just for a change accepting that he couldn't have been him and see what you're left with?

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2016, 07:27:07 PM »
Witnesses don't exist to achieve things, they are sought by police who use their statements to attempt to achieve an accurate picture of events, which is what they have done here, with the above report. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 01:38:28 PM by John »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2016, 07:28:34 PM »
Witnesses don't exist to achieve things, they are sought by police who use their statements to attempt to achieve an accurate picture of events, which is what they have done here, with the above report.

..and has any of it resulted in solving the case ?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 07:30:21 PM »
It seems most "sceptic" theories rely heavily on Smithman being Gerry - how about just for a change accepting that he couldn't have been him and see what you're left with?

It would be interesting to know the definition of "most" on which you rely and your methodology of evaluation.
I note you apply the caveat "it seems" so somewhere along the line an imo would seem to be missing.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 08:00:39 PM »
..and has any of it resulted in solving the case ?
No, but that's beside the point.  What it has done is help to establish who was where that evening and helps to eliminate certain scenarios.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2016, 08:06:44 PM »
No, but that's beside the point.  What it has done is help to establish who was where that evening and helps to eliminate certain scenarios.

Unfortunately, witness accounts including the Mccanns and their associates did change.

Likewise , there is not complete independent verification of the movements.

Also, we don't know for sure if the accounts are truthful or otherwise.