The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.

[ferryman]

Educate all us ignorant tossers with your definition of "independent witness" then, please. Then alongside give the legal definition. Try to do it without Google and a glut of parentheses.
Let's all have a good bleedin' laugh or not as the case may be.

p.s Dr Evadne liked Bracketts; you wouldn't be she perchance?

Anyone who could risk criminal charges of perjury or attempting to pervert the course of justice if they lied (distinct from honestly recollecting events in a way not entirely accurate).

[Alfie]

It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.

The PJ analysis came to the conclusion that Kate went to check on the kids at 10pm.  They came to this conclusion by looking at ALL the evidence and statements.  Why do you think they are wrong?

[Alfie]

Let's turn this around - we know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised.  We know Smithman was spotted at 10pm, so what time would "sceptics" like to put on the time the alarm was raised, and let's take it from there....

[Lace]

It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.

Gerry was seen by a waiter after the alarm was raised searching around the pool area,   then,  later when he left the OC he saw groups of people gathering to do searches.

[Alfie]

Just a reminder about the official timeline report put together by the PJ and British police who came up with a 10pm discovery of a missing child


"This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.

All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)'

How could they all get it so wrong and you sceptics get it so right?  Why are you sceptics way cleverer than the police?

[Alice Purjorick]

Let's turn this around - we know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised.  We know Smithman was spotted at 10pm, so what time would "sceptics" like to put on the time the alarm was raised, and let's take it from there....

Correction. We actually know neither unless we were present at both locations complete with a chronometer.
That would seem to be difficult.
The best we can do with the info available is " it would seem between x pm and ypm".

[Alice Purjorick]

Anyone who could risk criminal charges of perjury or attempting to pervert the course of justice if they lied (distinct from honestly recollecting events in a way not entirely accurate).

I prefer this one:

"An independent witness is a third-party witness who does not have an affiliation with either parties involved in a case and someone who can present an unbiased opinion".

[ferryman]

I prefer this one:

"An independent witness is a third-party witness who does not have an affiliation with either parties involved in a case and someone who can present an unbiased opinion".

Cornell University.

US law.

[slartibartfast]

U.K. One...

An independent witness means that the person seeing the situation does not know any of the parties involved.

[John]

It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.

I believe it has been established to be beyond doubt.  Another coincidence undoubtedly which has distracted the investigation for far too long.

[G-Unit]

How do you know there are no independent witnesses?   Other people in the vicinity or apartments may have seen what happened -  but went home before being interviewed - or simply never came forward because they didn't think they had anything to add to what was already known.

It's noticeable how many people seem to think the only people in PdL during that holiday are those who gave witness statements.    Just as some seem to think the only words ever spoken by the group during that week were those recorded in the files.   Bizarre IMO.

Diane Webster was at the table with Gerry at the time Kate raised the alarm.   Why would she lie about Gerry being there at that time?    The 'argument' that their childcare arrangements would get them into trouble would not apply to her and I certainly can't see Fiona encouraging her elderly mother to lie to the police.  Would you if it was your mother?

Here'sa couple of independent witnesses;

At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

[Alfie]

Here'sa couple of independent witnesses;

At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

By Slartibarstfart's definition that is not an independent witness either, as the waiter did know them. "An independent witness means that the person seeing the situation does not know any of the parties involved".

[Alfie]

It seems to me that the preferred option of some of our resident "sceptics" is to disregard ALL the witness statements and just make up the narrative of events that suits them the best. 

[Alfie]

Here'sa couple of independent witnesses;

At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

""This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.

All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)' "

[slartibartfast]

It seems to me that the preferred option of some of our resident "sceptics" is to disregard ALL the witness statements and just make up the narrative of events that suits them the best.

I wouldn't call FM a sceptic?