Gerry McCann says that thousands did or would have done the same as them.

[Eleanor]

You keep saying 'thousands of people have done the same', yet you cannot prodice any figures,and all we actually hear are the odd anecdote.

You need to come up with CITES which can be verified, not hearsay.

So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.

It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it.  But the fact remains that we did.

[stephen25000]

So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.

It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it.  But the fact remains that we did.

It doesn't make it acceptable behaviour, does it.

You are also evading the issue Eleanor.

Where is the evidence of these thousands of thousands of people who have done the same as the Mccanns ?

That is what I want to hear.

[Eleanor]

It doesn't make it acceptable behaviour, does it.

You are also evading the issue Eleanor.

Where is the evidence of these thousands of thousands of people who have done the same as the Mccanns ?

That is what I want to hear.

It was and is perfectly acceptable behaviour to me, and everyone I knew.

You simply aren't going to get the sort of proof that you are demanding.  And you wouldn't believe it if letters were provided.  Who are these people, and if you like, who am I? 

The McCanns are not duty bound to provide proof, and it wouldn't make any difference if they did.  These letters were only offered in support.  They were gestures.

[stephen25000]

It was and is perfectly acceptable behaviour to me, and everyone I knew.

You simply aren't going to get the sort of proof that you are demanding.  And you wouldn't believe it if letters were provided.  Who are these people, and if you like, who am I? 

The McCanns are not duty bound to provide proof, and it wouldn't make any difference if they did.  These letters were only offered in support.  They were gestures.

I'm afraid leaving children for extended periods is not acceptable, let alone in unlocked accomodation.

Why don't you read what the NSPCC  and other organizations say on this issue.

That has been done on this forum before.

Mccann made the claim about thousands of letters, not me or anyone else.

..and remember this, people have been charged and convicted for neglect in this country, and have you forgotten what the ex-Portuguese Minister said about the Mccanns escaping charges of 'abandonment' ?


https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1151476/revealed-why-the-portuguese-police-didnt-charge-mccanns-for-childrens-abandonment-after-maddie-disappeared/

[Eleanor]

I'm afraid leaving children for extended periods is not acceptable, let alone in unlocked accomodation.

Why don't you read what the NSPCC  and other organizations say on this issue.

That has been done on this forum before.

Mccann made the claim about thousands of letters, not me or anyone else.

..and remember this, people have been charged and convicted for neglect in this country, and have you forgotten what the ex-Portuguese Minister said about the Mccanns escaping charges of 'abandonment' ?


https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1151476/revealed-why-the-portuguese-police-didnt-charge-mccanns-for-childrens-abandonment-after-maddie-disappeared/

This is only in your opinion, Stephen.  The McCanns did not abandon their children and nor have they ever been charged, even with neglect.  And nor have the many thousands of people who have used this system over many years.

And I very much doubt that The NSPCC would recommend prosecution under the same or even similar circumstances.

I cannot and will not judge them.

[G-Unit]

So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.

It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it.  But the fact remains that we did.

Did you leave your door unlocked leading to a high balcony with furniture to climb on? If not, you didn't do the same.

[stephen25000]

This is only in your opinion, Stephen.  The McCanns did not abandon their children and nor have they ever been charged, even with neglect.  And nor have the many thousands of people who have used this system over many years.

And I very much doubt that The NSPCC would recommend prosecution under the same or even similar circumstances.

I cannot and will not judge them.

Under Portuguese law, they should have been charged, and could have faced jail (or gaol),  as would have any citizen of that country doing what they did.

[Eleanor]

Did you leave your door unlocked leading to a high balcony with furniture to climb on? If not, you didn't do the same.

All circumstances are different in some way.  You make risk assessments according to where you are, and a basic knowledge of your own children.  Very few people just walk out of the door and think everything will be alright.

However, an abductor coming along and stealing a child wasn't a risk assessment that anyone would have made prior to 2007.

[Eleanor]

Under Portuguese law, they should have been charged, and could have faced jail (or gaol),  as would have any citizen of that country doing what they did.

No Intent, Stephen.  That appears to be the law in Portugal.  And there was none.

[stephen25000]

No Intent, Stephen.  That appears to be the law in Portugal.  And there was none.

They left their children alone.


It was intentional to leave them in unlocked accomodation and without protection, and it was repeated behaviour.

[ferryman]

No Intent, Stephen.  That appears to be the law in Portugal.  And there was none.

Cardinal principle of criminal law under both the adversarial and (It seems!) the inquisitorial criminal codes.

[Eleanor]

They left their children alone.


It was intentional to leave them in unlocked accomodation and without protection, and it was repeated behaviour.

Obviously Portugal doesn't agree with you.

[Eleanor]

Cardinal principle of criminal law under both the adversarial and (It seems!) the inquisitorial criminal codes.

Precisely.  And that is good enough for me.  This is where it counts.

[Benice]

So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.

It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it.  But the fact remains that we did.

 I think it is highly likely that more people could say the same Eleanor, but don't because of the abuse that would follow. 

Quote from: Tootypopper on November 09, 2013, 04:59:40 PM

Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.

I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did.

End quote

The service may have ended at Butlins, but a hulluva lot of people used it in the 40 or more years it was on offer and it has certainly carried on in various other holiday venues, and is still offered today.  That can only be because there is a demand for it by parents.

Millions of families have been going on holiday every year for decades, the idea that the no. of  parents who have opted for the listening service is not in the hundreds of thousands (even millions) by now -  is not even vaguely credible IMO.

AIMHO

[Eleanor]

I think it is highly likely that more people could say the same Eleanor, but don't because of the abuse that would follow. 

Quote from: Tootypopper on November 09, 2013, 04:59:40 PM

Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.

I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did.

End quote

The service may have ended at Butlins, but a hulluva lot of people used it in the 40 or more years it was on offer and it has certainly carried on in various other holiday venues, and is still offered today.  That can only be because there is a demand for it by parents.

Millions of families have been going on holiday every year for decades, the idea that the no. of  parents who have opted for the listening service is not in the hundreds of thousands (even millions) by now -  is not even vaguely credible IMO.

AIMHO

I thought twice about admitting it, mainly due to the abuse I knew I would get.  But basic honestly wouldn't allow me to keep quiet.

No, I'm not sorry for doing it or for admitting it.