Is there a plausible, logical theory of abduction?

[Angelo222]

What 'evidence' of abduction from the apartment would you expect?

Oh just the normal stuff like boot marks on the outside wall, the window sills outside and inside, marks on the wall inside, dirt on the carpet between the childs bed and the window, marks on the bedspread by the window, fingerprints on the window or window frame, stuff knocked over even stolen or even signs of a forced entry.  Need I go on?

Its ironic for sure that the one single bit of evidence ie what Tanner said she saw has been discounted by SY.  Oops there goes the abduction theory, own goal for Redwood on that on me thinks.

[Benice]

I don't know how many times it's been pointed out, but you seem happy to ignore it. The listening method offered by hotels and holiday complexes is not, by any stretch of your imagination, the same as that practised by the T6.

The listening service, either offered as a service or mirrored by parents, always involves the one same principle - and that is that children are left alone and asleep in their rooms while their parents go out - having arranged for regular listening checks to be made.

The only difference which may exist is that in some cases the parents do the checking and in other cases members of staff do the checking.   

Then we have those parents who do no regular checking themselves but rely on baby alarms to act as babysitters.

None of the above alters the one thing that all those parents have in common with the McCanns and their friends, and that is  they have all decided it is acceptable and safe to leave their children alone and asleep in their rooms and go out to dinner.

All the wishful thinking in the world won't change that fact.

IMO

[Alfie]

Oh just the normal stuff like boot marks on the outside wall, the window sills outside and inside, marks on the wall inside, dirt on the carpet between the childs bed and the window, marks on the bedspread by the window, fingerprints on the window or window frame, stuff knocked over even stolen or even signs of a forced entry.  Need I go on?

Its ironic for sure that the one single bit of evidence ie what Tanner said she saw has been discounted by SY.  Oops there goes the abduction theory, own goal for Redwood on that on me thinks.

LOL.  So, in your opinion for an abduction to have occurred there MUST be forensic evidence left at the scene, and if none is found then it couldn't have been abduction, that's your view is it?

[G-Unit]

The listening service, either offered as a service or mirrored by parents, always involves the one same principle - and that is that children are left alone and asleep in their rooms while their parents go out - having arranged for regular listening checks to be made.

The only difference which may exist is that in some cases the parents do the checking and in other cases members of staff do the checking.   

Then we have those parents who do no regular checking themselves but rely on baby alarms to act as babysitters.

None of the above alters the one thing that all those parents have in common with the McCanns and their friends, and that is  they have all decided it is acceptable and safe to leave their children alone and asleep in their rooms and go out to dinner.

All the wishful thinking in the world won't change that fact.

IMO

Can you cite one official listening service which is offered not in an hotel or a complex but in a village which anyone can access and where there are a mixture of privately owned and holiday rental properties?

[ShiningInLuz]

There is nothing illogical about my reasoning.  Did the Tapas group leave their kids unattended most nights of the holiday?  How difficult would it have been for an abductor intent on stealing a child to work this out, by day 6 of the holiday, either through observation, reconnaissance or tip-off?   

I have also already conceded that maybe the abductor DIDN'T know that the children were unattended and entered the apartment on the off-chance, as has happened in other abductions and abduction attempts, also break-ins to the bedrooms of  children holiday makers on the Algarve.  I have said this all before on this thread so please don't claim again that I have not answered your question or get me to repeat it for the third time.

How difficult?  By observation or recon?  I can't prove it impossible, but it would not pass a test of 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.  Unless you overcome your distaste for visiting Luz I will not be able to demonstrate this to you by first-hand experience.

By tip off?  This requires that someone in the know is already aware of someone who wants to nick a child and is willing to pass on such information, presumably for cash though there could be a different motivation.  I am trying to envisage the pub conversation that took place.  Would it be 'hi, I've heard you are interested in nicking a kid, and I know where you can get one, if you have the required readies.'?  Or would it be 'we both have an interest in nicking a kid, and I know where we can get one.'?  That don't impress me much.

Opportunistic snatcher?  Madeleine could have been snatched in such an incident.  All that remains is means of entry and motivation.  And lack of evidence.  And those darn pesky dogs.  The key word in your post re this point was 'maybe', thus sheer speculation.

[Mr Gray]

How difficult?  By observation or recon?  I can't prove it impossible, but it would not pass a test of 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.  Unless you overcome your distaste for visiting Luz I will not be able to demonstrate this to you by first-hand experience.

By tip off?  This requires that someone in the know is already aware of someone who wants to nick a child and is willing to pass on such information, presumably for cash though there could be a different motivation.  I am trying to envisage the pub conversation that took place.  Would it be 'hi, I've heard you are interested in nicking a kid, and I know where you can get one, if you have the required readies.'?  Or would it be 'we both have an interest in nicking a kid, and I know where we can get one.'?  That don't impress me much.

Opportunistic snatcher?  Madeleine could have been snatched in such an incident.  All that remains is means of entry and motivation.  And lack of evidence. And those darn pesky dogs.  The key word in your post re this point was 'maybe', thus sheer speculation.

do you still not understand that no inference can be drawn from the alerts which proves your logic is totally flawed

[misty]

Can you cite one official listening service which is offered not in an hotel or a complex but in a village which anyone can access and where there are a mixture of privately owned and holiday rental properties?

Why does it make such a difference if the complex is a mixture of public & privately owned apartments? People are people the world over and, if they have bad intentions, a listening service in operation where they happen to be on vacation is not going to prevent them seizing an opportunity. 

[misty]

How difficult?  By observation or recon?  I can't prove it impossible, but it would not pass a test of 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.  Unless you overcome your distaste for visiting Luz I will not be able to demonstrate this to you by first-hand experience.

By tip off?  This requires that someone in the know is already aware of someone who wants to nick a child and is willing to pass on such information, presumably for cash though there could be a different motivation. I am trying to envisage the pub conversation that took place.  Would it be 'hi, I've heard you are interested in nicking a kid, and I know where you can get one, if you have the required readies.'?  Or would it be 'we both have an interest in nicking a kid, and I know where we can get one.'?  That don't impress me much.

Opportunistic snatcher?  Madeleine could have been snatched in such an incident.  All that remains is means of entry and motivation.  And lack of evidence.  And those darn pesky dogs.  The key word in your post re this point was 'maybe', thus sheer speculation.

Those sort of people don't chat in the pub these days; they use the Dark Web.

[Alfie]

How difficult?  By observation or recon?  I can't prove it impossible, but it would not pass a test of 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.  Unless you overcome your distaste for visiting Luz I will not be able to demonstrate this to you by first-hand experience.

By tip off?  This requires that someone in the know is already aware of someone who wants to nick a child and is willing to pass on such information, presumably for cash though there could be a different motivation.  I am trying to envisage the pub conversation that took place.  Would it be 'hi, I've heard you are interested in nicking a kid, and I know where you can get one, if you have the required readies.'?  Or would it be 'we both have an interest in nicking a kid, and I know where we can get one.'?  That don't impress me much.

Opportunistic snatcher?  Madeleine could have been snatched in such an incident.  All that remains is means of entry and motivation.  And lack of evidence.  And those darn pesky dogs.  The key word in your post re this point was 'maybe', thus sheer speculation.

You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt that my theory  (which is pretty close to your theory, let's face it) is actually what happened and not simply one plausible logical theory of abduction that may have happened.  Perhaps that is why you are getting so aerated with me, I dunno.  I'm still finding this exchange with you quite mystifying otherwise. &%+((£

[Alfie]

So you are now saying he didn't work it out just from seeing the parents in the restaurant? OK.

If he watched for six nights how long would he need to watch each night?

I don't think I ever did say that did I?
I think once a pattern had been established of the Tapas group leaving their kids alone to go and dine had been established, perhaps after 3 nights or so, a would-be abductor would have a pretty good idea of the risks involved, when was the best time to strike, etc.   That said, it could just as well have been a spur of the moment decision, by someone who knew there were kids in the apartment, just as the break-ins of children in holiday apartments had occurred elsewhere on the Algarve. 

[G-Unit]

Well these men existed G Unit there are witnesses who saw them,  are you trying to say they are wrong? No they didn't take any notice of passers by even though they thought the man scary,   read the witnesses statements.

Similar child?   That is why they had to be certain.

I'm sure the men did exist, but much less sure that they were doing anything wrong. If they were they were very careless about the possibility of being seen, reported and possibly caught later.

If the child was photographed on the beach why watch for her in R Dr A da Silva? She could have been collected from the main reception and taken to any one of the OC apartments, many of them nowhere near there.

[Robittybob1]

.........
 Speaking for myself I would have had difficulty distinguishing between two of those children if I had only seen a photo;

Which one is Madeleine?

[G-Unit]

I don't think I ever did say that did I?
I think once a pattern had been established of the Tapas group leaving their kids alone to go and dine had been established, perhaps after 3 nights or so, a would-be abductor would have a pretty good idea of the risks involved, when was the best time to strike, etc.   That said, it could just as well have been a spur of the moment decision, by someone who knew there were kids in the apartment, just as the break-ins of children in holiday apartments had occurred elsewhere on the Algarve.

What pattern was that then?
Saturday; no children left.
Sunday; only 8 of the group went to the Tapas to dine.
Tuesday; ditto
Wednesday; ditto.

The only night they were all at the Tapas was Monday. No pattern there of all being out every night Alfie.

How would a spur of the moment abductor know there were children alone in the apartment?

[G-Unit]

Which one is Madeleine?

Nice one.  *&*%£

[Robittybob1]

Nice one.  *&*%£

I'm being serious.   Which one is Madeleine?