Have the dog alerts any significance?

[John]

Do dog handlers testify at trials?

#no they dont because the alerts are not deemed to be reliable and their is no independent verification to say they are. I would say based on the available evidence taht none of the alerts in pdl related to maddie

That must be one of the most ill informed posts you have ever made.  Certainly dog handlers testify at trials, I believe it is you who are uninformed and not other forum members whom you constantly criticise.

Sniffer dog used in search for Madeleine McCann found missing Orkney man's body

Feb 17, 2010
By Dailyrecord.co.uk

A SNIFFER dog used in the search for missing Madeleine McCann found a man buried in sand dunes in Orkney, a court heard yesterday.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.

Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.

Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."

The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot.

The trial was also told one of the two men on trial for Bob's murder, Stephen Crummack, had indicated the area to police days before.

Detective Constable Neil Docherty said Crummack, 51, went on to blame his co-accused, John Campbell, 59, for killing Bob.

The pair deny murder and a string of related charges and the trial continues.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sniffer-dog-used-in-search-for-madeleine-1050817

[ferryman]

Sorry for going back a week but I recently saw confirmation from the dog handler that the garage and the gym were forensically swept by the dogs prior to the cars and clothing being brought in. Seems you jumped to the wrong conclusion in your rush to criticise.

This is from the 'official' (maybe not so official) record of the inspection in the gym:

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.

No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.

For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.

And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?

Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?

Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts. 

Why was Eddie deployed at all?

What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?

[John]

This is from the 'official' (maybe not so official) record of the inspection in the gym:

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.

No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.

For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.

And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?

Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?

Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts. 

Why was Eddie deployed at all?

What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?

Are you so naive as to think those timings are accurate?

[Robittybob1]

... snip ..

What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?

As the guys on the Dispatches documentary said if Madeleine's blood was found and the parents knew about it and said nothing that is significant.

[John]

As the guys on the Dispatches documentary said if Madeleine's blood was found and the parents knew about it and said nothing that is significant.

Yes, very significant.  But it wasn't found so endeth that particular line of thought.

[ferryman]

No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.

For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.

And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?

Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?

Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts. 

Why was Eddie deployed at all?

What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?


Are you so naive as to think those timings are accurate?

Why did Harrison (retrospectively) issue PJ personnel with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles? 

Given zero regard to principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transported from villa to gym, why the preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?

I think PJ personnel read these translated NPIA instructions Harrison gave them on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings, plucked bits from them, and contrived an 'account' of the 'inspection' in the gym, that was wholly unnecessary, ineptly carried out so that both dogs trampled all over stuff and manifestly unprofessional in that one dog picked stuff up in its mouth, manifestly NOT a trained response.

[Robittybob1]

Why did Harrison (retrospectively) issue PJ personnel with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles? 

Given zero regard to principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transported from villa to gym, why the preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?

I think PJ personnel read these translated NPIA instructions Harrison gave them on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings, plucked bits from them, and contrived an 'account' of the 'inspection' in the gym, that was wholly unnecessary, ineptly carried out so that both dogs trampled all over stuff and manifestly unprofessional in that one dog picked stuff up in its mouth, manifestly NOT a trained response.

Did Eddie alert to any clothing item?
More than one?
Could that have been evidence of cross contamination?

[misty]

No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.

For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.

And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?

Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?

Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts. 

Why was Eddie deployed at all?

What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?


Are you so naive as to think those timings are accurate?

Do you know if the cadaver dogs alerted in Huntley's house in the Soham case?

[ferryman]

Did Eddie alert to any clothing item?
More than one?
Could that have been evidence of cross contamination?

According to the 'official' record, he did, yes.

And yes (to your second question).

There was zero justification for inspecting clothing, let alone twice.

[Brietta]

Both Eddie and Keela alerting to the keyfob indicates human blood was on it but I take your point, cadaver odour and lots more could also have been on it...as davel states, we just don't know.

Gerry McCann was not the last person to drive the Renault.  Therefore not the last person to touch the key fob.  There is no evidence to the effect that the last driver or drivers wore protective gloves.

[Mr Gray]

Gerry McCann was not the last person to drive the Renault.  Therefore not the last person to touch the key fob.  There is no evidence to the effect that the last driver or drivers wore protective gloves.

The car was driven by a policeman who wore no protective clothing. police come into contact with dead bodies

[Alfie]

The car was driven by a policeman who wore no protective clothing. police come into contact with dead bodies

This would also explain the alerts in Apartment 5a, which, unlike all the other apartments had been crawling with police and forensic teams, none of which seemed to be wearing protective clothing either.

[John]

Keela was trained to alert only to the blood from a living person.  The odour of the blood from a dead person would NOT smell the same, it would smell of death.  Keela was NOT trained to alert to this, because she was not a Cadaver dog.

The two dogs were used together because they complimented each other.  Eddie unfortunately was double trained and alerted to living blood and the scent of death.  Keela alerted to ONLY the scent of living blood (dessicated).

When Eddie alerted it could have been to Living blood (dessicated) or it could have been to the odour of a dead body.  To sort out whether he was alerting to dead body odour, or the blood from a living person, it was necessary for Keela to sniff the odour too. 
If she alerted as well, then it was living blood.
If she kept quiet at the same odour, then it was either a sign that it could be cadaveresent odour ... or it could be pig ... or it could be a false alarm from an over excited dog .... as in mistys video 

I'm afraid you are mistaken Sadie, Keela alerted to human blood, dried or fresh.

Extract from the verbal report by Martin Grime:

She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.

and...

CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen
motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for human
blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have
been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several
washing machine cycles. In training she has accurately located samples of
blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ.
Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is
subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to
drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute
the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.

She is trained specifically using human blood obtained through the
haematology department at Sheffield Northern General Hospital. The blood
undergoes strict screening for disease and contamination prior to use. The
samples are from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds and are from both male
and female sources.

Keela's training and licensing is based around the level of 1 positive screening
sample introduced into 200 control articles or 1 positive sample introduced
during 6 hours searching in relation to crime scenes or vehicles.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm#mg2462

[Robittybob1]

Gerry McCann was not the last person to drive the Renault.  Therefore not the last person to touch the key fob.  There is no evidence to the effect that the last driver or drivers wore protective gloves.

One of the reason cadaver alert should never be thought of as evidence.

[John]

One of the reason cadaver alert should never be thought of as evidence.

Evidence can be neutral Robbie but it's still evidence.