Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent

[Holly Goodhead]

Had a sort of revelation this morning about the British conviction review authority. They have authorised forensic testing in other cases for applicants, and I believe they may have done so for Bamber previously. Is there any reason they would not order a reconstruction or animation based on the crime scene evidence which appears to strongly exclude NB having been shot in the shoulder anywhere but on the stairs. The same could apply to the mantle scratches which are also inconsistent with the claim that they arrived there during a fight of some sort.

N NZ how it works is that once convicted prisoners appeal direct to the appeal courts.  If the conviction is quashed then that's that.  If the conviction is upheld the prisoner then appeals via the Criminal Cases Review Commission:

http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/

However as you will see from the above it is down to the prisoner to submit an application and put together all supporting material.  Nothing is available by way of legal assistance and/or funding for experts until/unless the CCRC refer the case to the appeal courts. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I think you mean the Criminal Case Review Commission (CCRC)? They won't be organising any reconstructions and have already looked into the mantel scratches.

As I understand it the scratches to the mantel are not a dead duck so to speak.  The CCRC said more info is required.  I guess this is the reason the CT have the begging bowl out in this regard.  Although I do agree this is one aspect of the case that could be pursued unlike many aspects the CT pursue.

http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensics-fund-sc

http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensic-evidence  (point 5)

[John]

There's no need for anything to fly around corners in my scenario.  This is reason I think a computerised animated 3d reconstruction to scale is required to see what works and what doesn't.  Autopsy photos of the victims exist so it should be possible to incoporate them into a scaled model.  Although I'm not suggesting anything this graphic should be bandied about indiscrimately.  There's so much data available that it should be possible to advance this one way or another.  I have my version firmly embedded in my mind but I accept I am not an expert in any related field.

What I fail to see Holly is how you associate empty bullet casings in the master bedroom with Nevill being shot on the stairs? This has been gone into in great detail previously so please explain how the casings were not found on the stairs if the gunman fired from that position and given that casings are ejected forward and to the right of an Anschütz .22 rifle.   This was demonstrated very effectively when all the casings associated with June's murder were found on or to the right of her bed.

[John]

A reminder to all members that inappropriate comments will not be tolerated on this forum. We are here to discuss the Bamber case in a methodical and constructive manner.  Posts can be combative yet amiable, anything less than that will not be tolerated.

[Angelo222]

What I fail to see Holly is how you associate empty bullet casings in the master bedroom with Nevill being shot on the stairs? This has been gone into in great detail previously so please explain how the casings were not found on the stairs if the gunman fired from that position and given that casings are ejected forward and to the right of an Anschütz .22 rifle.   This was demonstrated very effectively when all the casings associated with June's murder were found on or to the right of her bed.

Just like the mysterious burns on Neville's back, the self closing window which didn't self close, the three sound moderators which morphed into one, the scratches under the mantel, the police were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse, the trick of light at the upstairs window and the phone call which Neville was supposed to have made.

Anyone who believes that a petite light framed girl could kill her parents including fighting with her father in the kitchen, kill her sleeping children and then administer two shots to her neck and still end up looking like someone out of a glamour mag has to be totally bonkers imo.

Note for Holls.  Vanezis only visited the crime scene AFTER the bodies had been removed.  He did not witness Sheila lying on the bedroom floor.  He was shocked when he saw the police photos after he had conducted the autopsy as they told a very different story.

[Samson]

Just like the mysterious burns on Neville's back, the self closing window which didn't self close, the three sound moderators which morphed into one, the scratches under the mantel, the police were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse, the trick of light at the upstairs window and the phone call which Neville was supposed to have made.

Anyone who believes that a petite light framed girl could kill her parents including fighting with her father in the kitchen, kill her sleeping children and then administer two shots to her neck and still end up looking like someone out of a glamour mag has to be totally bonkers imo.

Note for Holls.  Vanezis only visited the crime scene AFTER the bodies had been removed.  He did not witness Sheila lying on the bedroom floor.  He was shocked when he saw the police photos after her had conducted the autopsy as they told a very different story.

The hoax is secured with nonsense written by the incredulous.
We have repeatedly reconstructed a crime scene where no physical interaction happened between Sheila and anyone.

[Myster]

The hoax is secured with nonsense written by the incredulous.
We have repeatedly reconstructed a crime scene where no physical interaction happened between Sheila and anyone.

The only hoax was Bamber's, swallowed whole by a few short-sighted ijuts.

Since when have YOU reconstructed the crime scene, other than spouting nonsense that a strapping farmer would allow his feeble daughter to slip past him to a shooting gallery upstairs without taking action to disarm her... laughable!

[Angelo222]

The only hoax was Bamber's, swallowed whole by a few short-sighted ijuts.

Since when have YOU reconstructed the crime scene, other than spouting nonsense that a strapping farmer would allow his feeble daughter to slip past him to a shooting gallery upstairs without taking action to disarm her... laughable!

Extremely laughable since Sheila doted on Nevill and he in turn would do anything for her.  The wastrel on the other hand is another story.

[Holly Goodhead]

What I fail to see Holly is how you associate empty bullet casings in the master bedroom with Nevill being shot on the stairs? This has been gone into in great detail previously so please explain how the casings were not found on the stairs if the gunman fired from that position and given that casings are ejected forward and to the right of an Anschütz .22 rifle.   This was demonstrated very effectively when all the casings associated with June's murder were found on or to the right of her bed.

Yes I agree the forum has debated this extensively and it's a pity the defender and prosecutor at trial didn't do the same with the aide of expert witnesses.  Instead it was completely overlooked. 

Clearly long rifles and ammo designed to kill vermin are not meant for use in domestic dwellings.  There appears to be a perception that if the perp pulled the trigger within one room then the fall out was restricted to that room by way out of victims sustaining injuries and casings.  This isn't the way I see it, albeit I have no experience or qualifications in this area so I might be completely wrong.  My interpreation of the soc leads me to conclude that the perp was stood around the entrance of the main bedroom and fired out onto the landing at NB who was on the landing stairs.  This accounts for casings DRH/3 and DRH/4 and the downward trajectories of NB's facial wounds if NB was stood on the landing stairs preceding the bedroom and the perp elevated.   NB then turned and retreated to the main staircase facing down towards the hall with the perp, SC imo, behind who inflicted the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest which accounts for casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 on the landing and transistion strip and again the downward trajectories of the gsw's.


 

[Holly Goodhead]

Just like the mysterious burns on Neville's back, the self closing window which didn't self close, the three sound moderators which morphed into one, the scratches under the mantel, the police were in conversation with someone within the farmhouse, the trick of light at the upstairs window and the phone call which Neville was supposed to have made.

Anyone who believes that a petite light framed girl could kill her parents including fighting with her father in the kitchen, kill her sleeping children and then administer two shots to her neck and still end up looking like someone out of a glamour mag has to be totally bonkers imo.

Note for Holls.  Vanezis only visited the crime scene AFTER the bodies had been removed.  He did not witness Sheila lying on the bedroom floor.  He was shocked when he saw the police photos after he had conducted the autopsy as they told a very different story.

Based on trial testimony from Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight there doesn't appear to be anything conclusive about the burns.  Personally I think the burns are unrelated to soc.  Did anyone check NB's medi records for old injuries?

Many of the others aspects of the case you have mentioned are largely irrelevant post trial.  By this I mean they are not capable of advancing the case one way or another post conviction so there's little point, if any, in discussing them further.

The fact SC was of average build and above average height based on the average British female in the 1980's is neither here nor there.  If SC was the perp she had the upper hand in that she was in possession of a loaded firearm. 

You seem to have a mental image of how a woman would appear having carried out the WHF massacre which in your opinion is incompatiable with soc?

Police surgeon, Dr Craig, with 30 years experience visted soc at circa 8.30pm, he was of the opinion SC was responsible and had taken her own life.  Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones had between them some 60 plus years experience and had presided over some 100 murder investigations.  They both concluded SC was responsible.  I have no doubt in the final analysis they will be proved right.

I'm not sure what else the pathologist could have learned from observing SC at soc?  He obviously had the benefit of soc images.  No doubt his verdict would have remained the same ie unable to confirm murder or suicide? 

[Holly Goodhead]

The only hoax was Bamber's, swallowed whole by a few short-sighted ijuts.

Since when have YOU reconstructed the crime scene, other than spouting nonsense that a strapping farmer would allow his feeble daughter to slip past him to a shooting gallery upstairs without taking action to disarm her... laughable!

I've never thought of NB as a "strapping farmer" and/or SC as a "feeble daughter".  To my mind it wouldn't matter if it was a case of Mike Tyson and Minnie Mouse.  If Minnie Mouse was in possession of a loaded firearm she would call the shots.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Extremely laughable since Sheila doted on Nevill and he in turn would do anything for her.  The wastrel on the other hand is another story.

Where's the evidence SC "doted" on NB?  Her psychiatrist said "Her relationship with Mr Bamber appeared more supportive and trusting".   This was from a low starting point describing her realtionship with June.

[Myster]

I've never thought of NB as a "strapping farmer" and/or SC as a "feeble daughter".  To my mind it wouldn't matter if it was a case of Mike Tyson and Minnie Mouse.  If Minnie Mouse was in possession of a loaded firearm she would call the shots.   

Myster thinks of you as HOL9000 - a mild-mannered, softly-spoken, sentient super-computer...... who is also extremely stubborn...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIKBliboIo&t

[John]

Yes I agree the forum has debated this extensively and it's a pity the defender and prosecutor at trial didn't do the same with the aide of expert witnesses.  Instead it was completely overlooked. 

Clearly long rifles and ammo designed to kill vermin are not meant for use in domestic dwellings.  There appears to be a perception that if the perp pulled the trigger within one room then the fall out was restricted to that room by way out of victims sustaining injuries and casings.  This isn't the way I see it, albeit I have no experience or qualifications in this area so I might be completely wrong.  My interpreation of the soc leads me to conclude that the perp was stood around the entrance of the main bedroom and fired out onto the landing at NB who was on the landing stairs.  This accounts for casings DRH/3 and DRH/4 and the downward trajectories of NB's facial wounds if NB was stood on the landing stairs preceding the bedroom and the perp elevated.   NB then turned and retreated to the main staircase facing down towards the hall with the perp, SC imo, behind who inflicted the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest which accounts for casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 on the landing and transistion strip and again the downward trajectories of the gsw's.

Nearly all the casings associated with the initial assault on Nevill and June's murder were found in their bedroom indicating the shooter was either in that bedroom or just inside the door.  There is no other logical reason why those casings were there.  Their position on the bed and on the floor are an extremely good indicator of what took place.

The trajectory arguments are not valid since Nevill's position relative to the gunman at any given point in time cannot be determined.  If someone pointed a rifle at you Holly and threatened to fire it what angle would you be to them?

Undoubtedly the shooter was shocked to find that his victims were not rats and that one or two bullets from a .22 rifle were totally indequate in putting down an adult human being.  He ran out of bullets quickly and had to retreat downstairs to get more ammunition closely followed by Nevill who stumbled against the stairs leaving a trace of blood on the wall.  A fight ensued in the kitchen as the shooter didn't have enough time to reload before Nevill got to him.  This fight was Bamber's undoing.

Team Bamber have never been able to come up with any scenario which places Sheila in that fight.

[Holly Goodhead]

Myster thinks of you as HOL9000 - a mild-mannered, softly-spoken, sentient super-computer...... who is also extremely stubborn...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIKBliboIo&t

Hmmmmm I'm nost sure my willpower is capable of overcoming an attractive male astronaut with piercing blue eyes barking orders at me in outta space!  At least the lack of gravity would prevent me from swooning and keep me in an upright position!