Marks found under the mantelshelf at White House Farm

[Myster]

It looks like it's "Discuss Dodgy Aga Scratches Day" over at Faulty Towers.

We can't be beat so...,

Admin/John .... Do you have any sharp photos of the Aga surround other than that on the Jeremy Bamber Official Website, please?

Using the only clear pic. I can find, here is my take on how the scratches were caused, if one accepts that they were not deliberately made by David Boutflour.

1). The end of the moderator (attached to the rifle) came into contact with the underside of the mantleshelf at (a),
     forcefully enough to chip several layers of paint away.

2). It then jumped to (b), slid across the surface coming to a halt on the beading at (c) leaving behind three, thin
     parallel scratches with a fainter fourth just visible (caused by the knurled edges on the moderator end-cap)
     and chipped off another small flake of paint at (c).

3). The moderator was then deflected onto the vertical surround at (d), before being brought back up to the shelf
     underside at (e) and dragged along the path to (f) in an attempt to get away from the shelf and surround
     altogether.

I believe the yellow sticker covered up a mark left by Ronald Cook when he took a paint sample for comparison with a flake from the end of the moderator.

The HOLAB 5 drawing with the amended *bogus and fraudulent* remark signed by James Stevenson, formed part of the 1996 Manchester McKenzie report which sought to discredit the prosecution case in relation to the moderator.

Any takers with a different version of how these scratches were made?






Photo taken after clean-up of the kitchen, with U-shaped mark (d) just visible under the shelf, to the right of the metal flashlight.



Close-up of scratches under mantleshelf.

[ActualMat]

Brillaint topic, Myster. Really thought provoking.

As for HOW they were amde, anyones guess is a good as anyone else's - that is all it can be, a guessing game. As for the expert that claimed these scratches weren't in the original photos, shame on him and on any Bamber supported/defence team member that still allows this lie to be told even though the expert evidence has been completely destroyed.

[John]

An excellent layout of the scratch marks myster.  I don't think we have any other photos of the mantlepiece shelf which are any different from what you have already shown although there are a few of the side surround also showing marks.

[Myster]

An excellent layout of the scratch marks myster.  I don't think we have any other photos of the mantlepiece shelf which are any different from what you have already shown although there are a few of the side surround also showing marks.

I studied those on the side before, (because Tesko recently said they need to be investigated by proper experts!!!), but to me they look more like dust and fibre marks on the negative when the photo was developed and enlarged in the darkroom, because you can see more of them on the wallpaper to the left.

I'm fairly sure they hadn't gone digital in '85.

Or they could be scratches made later through handling of the photo.

[John]

An excellent layout of the scratch marks myster.  I don't think we have any other photos of the mantlepiece shelf which are any different from what you have already shown although there are a few of the side surround also showing marks.

I studied those on the side before, (because Tesko recently said they need to be investigated by proper experts!!!), but to me they look more like dust and fibre marks on the negative when the photo was developed and enlarged in the darkroom, because you can see more of them on the wallpaper to the left.

I'm fairly sure they hadn't gone digital in '85.

Or they could be scratches made later through handling of the photo.

You're quite right, I never noticed those marks on the wallpaper before.  Just goes to show!

[Angelo222]

An excellent layout of the scratch marks myster.  I don't think we have any other photos of the mantlepiece shelf which are any different from what you have already shown although there are a few of the side surround also showing marks.

I studied those on the side before, (because Tesko recently said they need to be investigated by proper experts!!!), but to me they look more like dust and fibre marks on the negative when the photo was developed and enlarged in the darkroom, because you can see more of them on the wallpaper to the left.

I'm fairly sure they hadn't gone digital in '85.

Or they could be scratches made later through handling of the photo.

They have had 27 years to concoct a ridiculous story about the photos of the scratch marks and the more they invent the sillier they are looking.  Ewen Smith must have quite a chuckle when he sees the crap that Tesko is posting about him.  Smith is now a CCRC Commissioner but used to be Bambers lawyer.  He will be in no doubt the sort of nonsense that Jeremy is capable of.   

[ActualMat]

An excellent layout of the scratch marks myster.  I don't think we have any other photos of the mantlepiece shelf which are any different from what you have already shown although there are a few of the side surround also showing marks.

I studied those on the side before, (because Tesko recently said they need to be investigated by proper experts!!!), but to me they look more like dust and fibre marks on the negative when the photo was developed and enlarged in the darkroom, because you can see more of them on the wallpaper to the left.

I'm fairly sure they hadn't gone digital in '85.

Or they could be scratches made later through handling of the photo.

They have had 27 years to concoct a ridiculous story about the photos of the scratch marks and the more they invent the sillier they are looking.  Ewen Smith must have quite a chuckle when he sees the crap that Tesko is posting about him.  Smith is now a CCRC Commissioner but used to be Bambers lawyer.  He will be in no doubt the sort of nonsense that Jeremy is capable of.   

Oh, absolutely. Ewen got out when he realised that Bamber was a master manipulator and was more than likely guilty as charged and convicited in a court by members of the general public.

[goatboy]

An excellent layout of the scratch marks myster.  I don't think we have any other photos of the mantlepiece shelf which are any different from what you have already shown although there are a few of the side surround also showing marks.

I studied those on the side before, (because Tesko recently said they need to be investigated by proper experts!!!), but to me they look more like dust and fibre marks on the negative when the photo was developed and enlarged in the darkroom, because you can see more of them on the wallpaper to the left.

I'm fairly sure they hadn't gone digital in '85.

Or they could be scratches made later through handling of the photo.

They have had 27 years to concoct a ridiculous story about the photos of the scratch marks and the more they invent the sillier they are looking.  Ewen Smith must have quite a chuckle when he sees the crap that Tesko is posting about him.  Smith is now a CCRC Commissioner but used to be Bambers lawyer.  He will be in no doubt the sort of nonsense that Jeremy is capable of.   

Oh, absolutely. Ewen got out when he realised that Bamber was a master manipulator and was more than likely guilty as charged and convicited in a court by members of the general public.

That's very true Mat. He has cut off all ties with Tesko as he has fallen out with him. Does that stop Mike (and others who have fallen out with him like Jackie Preece) from continuing to obsessively fight Bamber's case for him? However has he managed to instil such loyalty in people if he is not a master manipulator?

[Padgates staff]

Thats the issue with any case Goatboy that hits the medid/public interest, there's seldom a website with just the facts on it, it seems there's always 2 groups-the pro and the against! Really we do need an impartial.
I was asked something similar last week in a converstaion with the police about a case and had to say I couldn't form an opinion either way because I'd only seen an argument for the peron being innocent and not guilty, it's a case that I'd love to see the prosecutions side too.
In Jeremy's case, there is probably enough stuff out there to form an opinion either way, although I'd love to see the evidence held under pii. I still have failed to see the scratched mantel, even though someone told me what photos's they were in and I have grave concerns that the relatives did do them to add more weight to jeremy doing the murders but there was probably enough evidence anyway.

[Myster]

I still have failed to see the scratched mantel, even though someone told me what photos's they were in and I have grave concerns that the relatives did do them to add more weight to jeremy doing the murders but there was probably enough evidence anyway.

The scratched mantleshelf photo is here, Joanne... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=802.0

I'm still of the opinion that these were done while Jeremy Bamber and his father were wrestling for possession of the rifle, and/or Jeremy temporarily lost control of it while he was beating his father with the barrel end (with the moderator fitted).

[Padgates staff]

Thank you Myster.

[John]

I still have failed to see the scratched mantel, even though someone told me what photos's they were in and I have grave concerns that the relatives did do them to add more weight to jeremy doing the murders but there was probably enough evidence anyway.

The scratched mantelshelf photo is here, Joanne... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=802.0

I'm still of the opinion that these were done while Jeremy Bamber and his father were wrestling for possession of the rifle, and/or Jeremy temporarily lost control of it while he was beating his father with the barrel end (with the moderator fitted).

It is quite reasonable to expect that marks were left in the kitchen as Nevill struggled with Jeremy.  The rifle with sound moderator fitted was extremely long and rather unwieldy, it is very possible that the silencer got stuck under the mantelpiece as they wrestled about the room.

This isn't an area of the case where I have spent a lot of time studying the evidence but consider this.  Most of the marks are to the underside of the mantel which are not immediately noticeable in the normal room photography.

Could it be that additional marks were made by the police collecting paint samples after the discovery of the silencer in the gun cabinet?

[jackiepreece]

John it's not impossible for the injuries to Neville to have been carried out when he had already been shot/was dying and too weak to fight back is it?
If this was the situation the person inflicting the injuries would not have to be particularly strong would they?

[John]

John it's not impossible for the injuries to Neville to have been carried out when he had already been shot/was dying and too weak to fight back is it?
If this was the situation the person inflicting the injuries would not have to be particularly strong would they?

I accept that Jackie but they would have had blood spatter all over them.