Gerry and Kate's reaction to sniffer dogs didnt make sense new ninemsn article

[pathfinder73]

Morse was not introduced to blood as a discrete scent and rewarded for finding it.

That was the department of Keela, with whom Morse was teamed up by Grime.

Morse does the same job as Eddie or Buster or any trained human remains dog and they ALL alert to blood. Keela only alerts to blood. End of.

"A cadaver dog should alert on human blood. He has no way of knowing whether or not the blood in the car is from hauling a corpse or hauling a bleeding patient to the Emergency Room. It's decomposing human tissue. That's all he cares about. He did his job. How it got there is someone else's job."

http://www.farmfreshforensics.com/csi_blog/view/355/cadaver_dogs

You should provide cites Ferryman before posting any further nonsense.

[pathfinder73]

Hardly just the evidence of a Cadaver Dog.

Of course a circumstantial case is not just dog alerts. It may be the identification of Smithman and much more.

[sadie]

my dear Pathfinder.  You are getting mixed up.

Cadavar dogs solely trained to find Cadavars alert only to cadavar odour, be it bones, cadavar blood, teeth, cross contaminates etc.

Cadavar dogs trained also to the dessicated blood of a living person will alert to the blood from a living person and to any remains of a cadavar.  Eddie was such a dog, double trained.

As he was double trained so he alerted to dried blood from a living person and to the blood and any remains from a cadavar.


The dogs that you keep posting about , are it seems, just singly trained Cadavar dogs.  They are different to Eddie.  If they alert, the chances are that they are identifying cadavar odour.

In Eddies case the odour could be Cadavar or it could be the odour of dessicated blood from a living person.   With his alerts it is imperative that the operator (Grime) should verify which type of scent he is alerting to.  But this didn't happen at all alerts. 

Therefore Eddie could have alerted to the blood from a living person or to a cadavar. 

As over the years there would have been a number of cuts, grazes etc in 5A, it is far far more likely that Eddies alerts were to the dessicated blood from a living person than to a Cadavar.


You are all mixed up, between dogs that are singly trained and dogs such as Eddie which are doubly trained. 

Can you understand it now?



PS No-body is saying that Cadavar or blood dogs are incapable of identifying the scents.  They are very good at that.  All of them.   
But in eddies case, what did he identify?  Was it dessicated blood from a living person , or was it a Cadavar? 

Where Keela was brought in, it was shown to be the dessicated blood from a living person, of which there is likely to be several instances in an apartment as old as 5A.


OK ?

[pathfinder73]

Why don't you provide a cite Sadie? Oh......you can't 

Cadaver dogs alert to dried blood from a live human being but they are not brought in to find live humans. They are brought in to find evidence of death.

[ferryman]

Morse does the same job as Eddie or Buster or any trained human remains dog and they ALL alert to blood. Keela only alerts to blood. End of.

"A cadaver dog should alert on human blood. He has no way of knowing whether or not the blood in the car is from hauling a corpse or hauling a bleeding patient to the Emergency Room. It's decomposing human tissue. That's all he cares about. He did his job. How it got there is someone else's job."

http://www.farmfreshforensics.com/csi_blog/view/355/cadaver_dogs

You should provide cites Ferryman before posting any further nonsense.

Morse was not trained to the scent of blood as a discrete scent.

And the case you link to comes under the precepts of Scottish law, where, unlike in England, uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are accepted as evidence.

This video of how you train a dog to find drugs is useful. 

It emphasises the point that you introduce the dog to the scent and reward the dog for finding that scent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUkdT2G21P8

[pathfinder73]

Morse was not trained to the scent of blood as a discrete scent.

And the case you link to comes under the precepts of Scottish law, where, unlike in England, uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are accepted as evidence.

This video of how you train a dog to find drugs is useful. 

It emphasises the point that you introduce the dog to the scent and reward the dog for finding that scent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUkdT2G21P8

That's a drug dog so not relevant.

Martin Grime makes it clear:

"The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

Cadaver dogs are brought in to find evidence of death. All cadaver dogs alert to dried blood like Eddie.

[ferryman]

That's a drug dog so not relevant.

Martin Grime makes it clear:

"The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

Cadaver dogs are brought in to find evidence of death. All cadaver dogs alert to dried blood like Eddie.

Martin Grime does, indeed, make it clear that he introduced Eddie to blood as a discrete scent and rewarded the dog for reacting to blood.

Which is why Eddie would react to blood as a discrete scent.

Grime skipped that step with Morse.

[pathfinder73]

Martin Grime does, indeed, make it clear that he introduced Eddie to blood as a discrete scent and rewarded the dog for reacting to blood.

Which is why Eddie would react to blood as a discrete scent.

Grime skipped that step with Morse.

Cite?

Morse trained with Eddie and this was 2 years after the McCann case.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.

Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.

Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."

The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sniffer-dog-used-in-search-for-madeleine-1050817

[ferryman]

Cite?

Morse trained with Eddie and this was 2 years after the McCann case.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.

Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.

Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."

The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sniffer-dog-used-in-search-for-madeleine-1050817

You have already provided the cite.

[pathfinder73]

You have already provided the cite.

Your post "Grime skipped that step with Morse."

Provide a cite?

[ferryman]

Your post "Grime skipped that step with Morse."

Provide a cite?

There is (literally) no point in two dogs both reacting to the same substance.

Morse was brought in to work with a dog trained to react to nothing except blood.

Grime testified as an expert in the training and employment of cadaver dogs. According to Grime, he is a full-time contractor for the FBI. Grime worked with Morse, a dog “trained to search for and detect the odor of decomposing human remains,” and Keela, “trained to search for and locate specifically human blood.” Grime testified that there was no methodology to test the dogs' responses when there is no recoverable material, and that the odor of decomposition may transfer if a person touches a dead body and then touches something else.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

[pathfinder73]

There is (literally) no point in two dogs both reacting to the same substance.

Morse was brought in to work with a dog trained to react to nothing except blood.

decomposing human remains includes blood. Keela comes in to pin-point unseen blood and rule it out of the cadaver dog alert if she doesn't alert.

[ferryman]

decomposing human remains includes blood. Keela comes in to pin-point unseen blood and rule it out of the cadaver dog alert if she doesn't alert.

Morse was not trained to react to blood.

Part of the controversy of D'Andre Lane's conviction for the murder of his (I think!) step-daughter was that there were no retrievable remains.

But judges held the conviction, nonetheless, to be safe.

[pathfinder73]

"Morse was not trained to react to blood."

Cite?

D'Andre Louis Lane was the father of Bianca Jones

"Morse also alerted Grime to the odor of decomposition in Bianca's room, and police discovered blood on Bianca's pillow.

Halverson also tested a blood sample from a pillow, which matched Bianca's DNA profile."

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

[ferryman]

"Morse was not trained to react to blood."

Cite?

D'Andre Louis Lane was the father of Bianca Jones

"Morse also alerted Grime to the odor of decomposition in Bianca's room, and police discovered blood on Bianca's pillow.

Halverson also tested a blood sample from a pillow, which matched Bianca's DNA profile."

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

How many (more!) times do you want the cite that proves Morse was not trained to react to the scent of blood?

Finding Bianca's blood in Bianca's bedroom would scarcely be incriminating and, indeed, if it was suspected that Morse had reacted to Bianca's blood in Bianca's bedroom that would have ruled out the dog's alert in Bianca's bedroom as evidence admissible in court, for obvious reasons.