Gerry and Kate's reaction to sniffer dogs didnt make sense new ninemsn article

[Erngath]

Grime has been criticized since his involvement in the case for blatantly obvious reasons.

The McCann's and some supporters are concerned about the
Dogs indications.

Yet if they don't matter, then why the concern.

Possibly  because  lotsa sceptics place so much store  in their indications and seem to base their belief in the Mccann's involvement solely on the doggies barking. imo.

[Alice Purjorick]

Possibly  because sceptics place so much store  in their indications and seem to base their belief in the Mccann's involvement solely on the doggies barking. imo.

You might do better not to group sceptics as one homogeneous lump....

We have done this before haven't we a few days ago?

[Erngath]

You might do better not to group sceptics as one homogeneous lump....

We have done this before haven't we a few days ago?

Post amended.

[ferryman]

Grime has been criticized since his involvement in the case for blatantly obvious reasons.

At last, something we can agree on.


The McCanns and some supporters are concerned about the  Dogs' indications.

Reliability of the dogs' indications, yes.



Yet if they don't matter, then why the concern.

Precisely the point is that they do matter, because if the dogs' indications were to be eliminated from the equation (as Mark Harrison said they should be) there would be nothing left as a basis to accuse the McCanns.

[stephen25000]

Possibly  because  lotsa sceptics place so much store  in their indications and seem to base their belief in the Mccann's involvement solely on the doggies barking. imo.

It isn't just the dogs.

[misty]

Grime has been criticized since his involvement in the case for blatantly obvious reasons.

The McCann's and some supporters are concerned about the
Dogs indications.

Yet if they don't matter, then why the concern.

http://loudounnow.com/2016/06/02/day-9-of-castillo-murder-trial-hones-in-on-phone-records/

*snipped*

Keela, a human blood detection dog, is trained to pinpoint dried blood, while Morse, a victim recovery dog, is trained to detect the scent of human remains. Keela was directed to search the master bedroom, and found no traces of blood other than a drawer containing women’s underwear. Grime noted that isn’t uncommon because of the scent of menstrual blood.

Stockham and Grime said Morse detected two areas of human decomposition, near the bathtub in the bathroom of the basement, where Michelle’s body was found, and the carpet at the foot of the bed in the master bedroom.

Grime testified that Morse’s sniff rate increased when in the bedroom and basement, notifying him that there was the possibility of human decomposition. “All I can really do is tell you whether the dog gave a positive or negative response,” he said. “He gave a positive response [to human decomposition] in the basement and bedroom.”

The defense countered, arguing that the positively identified odor in the bedroom may have been transferred by investigators, a possibility to which the handlers did not deny. Defense attorneys argued that it is impossible to determine whether Morse’s alert was accurate.

“If it’s not confirmed that there was a dead body, you don’t know if it’s right or wrong,” defense attorney Jonathan Shapiro said.

Grime stressed that people will challenge positive responses, but not negative ones. “I am interpreting what is happening within the dog’s brain,” he said.  “As soon as the dog entered the bedroom, he exhibited behavioral changes.
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This is a US 2014 murder case, details of which can be found online. Not only is the cadaver alert in the bedroom questionable but two forensic pathologists have differing opinions of the nature of the death. The accused was found guilty of murder & has since had an appeal refused.

[stephen25000]

Precisely the point is that they do matter, because if the dogs' indications were to be eliminated from the equation (as Mark Harrison said they should be) there would be nothing left as a basis to accuse the McCanns.

Yet all this in the files.

Those files aren't going to go away.

[pathfinder73]

Precisely the point is that they do matter, because if the dogs' indications were to be eliminated from the equation (as Mark Harrison said they should be) there would be nothing left as a basis to accuse the McCanns.

Mark Harrison said:

"The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz. During the first week of her disappearance the GNR tasked personnel to search through the village for the scenario of Madeleine still being alive. This involved visiting dwellings and business premises and a physical search of the refuse bins. A full scale re-search of the village is not currently advised due to its speculative nature and resource implications. Should new information or intelligence identify a specific location then it would be recommended to re-search it adopting the similar model of reconnaissance followed by a search using several detecting methods as detailed in this report to provide a high assurance of detection for a concealed body." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Fast forward to 2014 and SY's search for a concealed body in PDL as suggested in MH 2007 report.

[ferryman]

Yet all this in the files.

Those files aren't going to go away.

The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

That's certainly in the files.

And it's not going to go away.

[ferryman]

Mark Harrison said:

"The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz. During the first week of her disappearance the GNR tasked personnel to search through the village for the scenario of Madeleine still being alive. This involved visiting dwellings and business premises and a physical search of the refuse bins. A full scale re-search of the village is not currently advised due to its speculative nature and resource implications. Should new information or intelligence identify a specific location then it would be recommended to re-search it adopting the similar model of reconnaissance followed by a search using several detecting methods as detailed in this report to provide a high assurance of detection for a concealed body." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Fast forward to 2014 and SY's search for a concealed body in PDL as suggested in MH 2007 report.

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Mark Harrison, concluding his final report.

[ferryman]

Mark Harrison said:

"The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz. During the first week of her disappearance the GNR tasked personnel to search through the village for the scenario of Madeleine still being alive. This involved visiting dwellings and business premises and a physical search of the refuse bins. A full scale re-search of the village is not currently advised due to its speculative nature and resource implications. Should new information or intelligence identify a specific location then it would be recommended to re-search it adopting the similar model of reconnaissance followed by a search using several detecting methods as detailed in this report to provide a high assurance of detection for a concealed body." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Fast forward to 2014 and SY's search for a concealed body in PDL as suggested in MH 2007 report.

That doesn't link to any work undertaken by Grime in PdL.

[Mr Gray]

Grime has been criticized since his involvement in the case for blatantly obvious reasons.

The McCann's and some supporters are concerned about the
Dogs indications.

Yet if they don't matter, then why the concern.

The McCanns would not be concerned about the alerts
You are quoting opinion as fact
The McCanns are intelligent enough to understand the value of the alerts
As am I
The alerts have no value

[stephen25000]

The McCanns would not be concerned about the alerts
You are quoting opinion as fact
The McCanns are intelligent enough to understand the value of the alerts
As am I
The alerts have no value

Yet Gerry McCann tried to bring it up in court, and the judge dealt with that quite appropriately.

As I and others have said, if the alerts didn't bother the McCann's or some of their backers, they wouldn't bring it up, again,and again, and again.

[sadie]

Therefore the alert was to desiccated blood from a bleeding person.  You couldn't tell from the dog alert alone if they were bleeding while dying, recently dead or survived the injury.

Every apartment of that age would have spots of blood around.  So if both eddie and Keela alerted to dessicated blood in one of the other apartments, you would consider that a red flag?

I appreciate that the dog alerts could be from the blood of someone dying, but by a multitude of odds it would be far more likely to be from a minor wound to a living person, such as a mosquito bite or minor accident.   

NOTHING at all points to Madeleine dying in that apartment ... apart from the suspicions of a man who has a record of lying .... and who "scores" if he gets a result.   

I would suggest that given the fact that both dogs alerted, which means the blood from a living person (even years ago) and that there are no reasons for suspicion of The Mccanns, no other Police Officer other than Amaral would have given the alerts any attention after a cursory examination of the situation.  They would have just been logged.

AIMHO

[John]

Every apartment of that age would have spots of blood around.  So if both eddie and Keela alerted to dessicated blood in one of the other apartments, you would consider that a red flag?

I appreciate that the dog alerts could be from the blood of someone dying, but by a multitude of odds it would be far more likely to be from a minor wound to a living person, such as a mosquito bite or minor accident.   

NOTHING at all points to Madeleine dying in that apartment ... apart from the suspicions of a man who has a record of lying .... and who "scores" if he gets a result.   

I would suggest that given the fact that both dogs alerted, which means the blood from a living person (even years ago) and that there are no reasons for suspicion of The Mccanns, no other Police Officer other than Amaral would have given the alerts any attention after a cursory examination of the situation.  They would have just been logged.

AIMHO

Inevitably over time there would have been specks of blood and other body fluids on furnishings, floors and walls of all the apartments, however, the dog alerts were restricted to 5a and given that a child had disappeared from that apartment, investigators were correct to be suspicious.  Another coincidence possibly?