Gerry and Kate's reaction to sniffer dogs didnt make sense new ninemsn article

[slartibartfast]

Quote from the relevant part of South Yorkshire Police FOI
 
Eddie the Springer Spaniel sniffer dog.
Reference number: 20090062
Request date: 19/02/2009 (All day)
Response date: 30/03/2009 (All day)
Request details:
 
SYP response:
Thank you for your request for information in relation to:

1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer Spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?
(snipped)

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
End quote

Eddie and Grime have been deployed on a total of 37 occasions over 5 years.   Only on 17 of those occasions were Eddie and Grime working alone - finding one body.

This would appear to be a far cry from the 200 cases claimed by some.
IMO

In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[Angelo222]

according to harrison no inference can be drawn from such alerts and he is the expert

I disagree, when you send in a dog trained to find a bone he usually finds a bone.  It is not unreasonable to infer therefore, that when that same dog alerts but no bone is found, that the bone has been moved.

[Benice]

In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I find it hard to believe that 200 people disappeared in suspicious circumstances( as the quote bolded above claims) during the 5 years that Eddie worked for SYP - and required him to search for them.   Surely such a huge no. would have been headline news.

It's obvious to me that the reference is to Eddie's non-reaction to foodstuffs and not to cadavers.  I have no doubt that Grime subjected to him to regular testing in that area - and the figure of 200 includes those tests.

AIMHO

[John]

From a Freedom of Information Request to South Yorkshire Police in 2009.


I would like to request the following under the FOI Act:

1.         Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?  Please provide a breakdown for each year.

2.         Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.

SYP Response:
 

1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?

Eddie, the specialist dog is no longer with South Yorkshire Police. He and his handler left the Force in August 2007. The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.

Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.

 
2. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.

Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.

All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces.

Two deployments for Ellis/Frankie were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remaining three were to external forces.

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/sniffer-dog-deployments-costs

[John]

Consequently, Eddie was deployed by SYP on 37 cases over five years resulting in the recovery of five bodies.



Some examples of Eddie's work as an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog)

EVRD OPERATIONAL CASEWORK EXAMPLES

Northern Ireland, UK
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

Devon, UK
A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

Cornwall, UK
A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet. No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact been written by the suspect having handled the body. This was confirmed by the offender in interview.

New Mexico, U.S.A.
A witness reported having seen two men walk off into brush land carrying a spade and a corpse. The area was searched with the EVRD with no indications being forthcoming. Other assets were utilised and the body was found: buried at a depth of 8 feet, under the water table, 3 feet of cement and 5 feet of earth replaced on top the corpse that was wrapped in cling film. There being no scent available to the dog to receive there was no forthcoming.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/martin-grime-report-to-pj-mccann-case.html

[John]

One can also add to this the more recent case involving the murder of Kate Prout.  Mrs Prout was strangled by her husband Adrian and her body hidden in a deep grave on the couples farm.  Eddie was deployed to the farm as the investigation developed and alerted within the family home.  Eddie was unable to alert to cadaver scent at the burial site due to the manner and depth at which the body had been buried.

The EVRD's alerts within the family home together with other evidence allowed police and the CPS to bring Adrian Prout to trial despite his wife's whereabouts being unknown.  Prout was later convicted of murder but continued to protest his innocence.  As part of a campaign to overturn his conviction he agreed to take a lie detector test which he failed. As a result he went on to admit his guilt and eventually took police to the location where he had buried his wife using a mechanical digger.  Her body was recovered in due course.

The EVRD alerts in the family home were as a result of secondary transfer associated with the killer after coming into contact with the cadaver.

[slartibartfast]

I find it hard to believe that 200 people disappeared in suspicious circumstances( as the quote bolded above claims) during the 5 years that Eddie worked for SYP - and required him to search for them.   Surely such a huge no. would have been headline news.

It's obvious to me that the reference is to Eddie's non-reaction to foodstuffs and not to cadavers.  I have no doubt that Grime subjected to him to regular testing in that area - and the figure of 200 includes those tests.

AIMHO

So why do you think 200 case searches mean 200 cases rather than 200 searches?

[John]

So why do you think 200 case searches mean 200 cases rather than 200 searches?

I suppose each search is given a unique identifier so in one day you could have one, two, three or four searches associated with a single case.  Or alternatively you could have one search related to a case and possibly another search relating to an entirely different case.

What is clear is that both Eddie and Keela had a remarkable career and served the public well. Like most people associated with the Madeleine case the poor dogs have been unfairly criticised simply because they were involved.

[Robittybob1]

One can also add to this the more recent case involving the murder of Kate Prout.  Mrs Prout was strangled by her husband Adrian and her body hidden in a deep grave on the couples farm.  Eddie was deployed to the farm as the investigation developed and alerted within the family home.  Eddie was unable to alert to cadaver scent at the burial site due to the manner and depth at which the body had been buried.

The EVRD's alerts within the family home together with other evidence allowed police and the CPS to bring Adrian Prout to trial despite his wife's whereabouts being unknown.  Prout was later convicted of murder but continued to protest his innocence.  As part of a campaign to overturn his conviction he agreed to take a lie detector test which he failed. As a result he went on to admit his guilt and eventually took police to the location where he had buried his wife using a mechanical digger.  Her body was recovered in due course.

The EVRD alerts in the family home were as a result of secondary transfer associated with the killer after coming into contact with the cadaver.

So even though the EVRD didn't find the body the alert in the home would have encouraged the police to keep investigating and extra pressure on the perpetrator "we know you did it" having a psychological pressure effect resulting finally in a confession. 

[John]

So even though the EVRD didn't find the body the alert in the home would have encouraged the police to keep investigating and extra pressure on the perpetrator "we know you did it" having a psychological pressure effect resulting finally in a confession.

In the Prout case it was the failing of the lie detector test arranged by his new girlfriend which was the catalyst to confessing.  I don't believe for a minute that Eddie's alerts were in any way relevant to him confessing.  I followed the case closely at the time and taking everything into consideration there was little doubt that he was involved.  The only questions were how he did it and where he hid her.

[sadie]

I disagree, when you send in a dog trained to find a bone he usually finds a bone.  It is not unreasonable to infer therefore, that when that same dog alerts but no bone is found, that the bone has been moved.

Ah, but what IF the dogs had ALSO been trained to find the dessicated blood from  a living person ?

If the dog alerts then, all it means is that at that spot, at some time, there had been
...  some dessicated blood from a living person.
...  or a BONE


If another dog trained to alert only to Dessicated blood alerted at the same spot, that rules out the BONE and indicates the presence of dessicated blood from a living person lain there Gawd only knows how many years before.

That blood could be a minute quantity, washed away and even deposited there .. say 20 years before.


Soz, Angelo but your logic is faulty.   You  have forgotten the part thagt Keela added to the alert situation

[stephen25000]

Grime claims operational deployment and over 200 cases:

Let's have a verified cite to back up your claim.

[ferryman]

Let's have a verified cite to back up your claim.

I haven't made a 'claim'; I have offered a cite:

Sub-heading: Points to assist.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[Robittybob1]

I haven't made a 'claim'; I have offered a cite:

Sub-heading: Points to assist.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

"In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never

alerted to meat based foodstuffs."

[ferryman]

"In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never

alerted to meat based foodstuffs."

Thank you Rob.