The Level Of Haloperidol In SC's System at TOD.

[Myster]

Is there anything from SC's GP in this regard?  He was the last medically qualified person to meet with her. 

On 9th Aug Dr Ferguson referred to the side-effects as "slightly sedating" and "slight muscle stiffening". 

Any idea of the date of her last injection?  She was having fortnightly injections and it was talked about halving the dose by injecting the same amount monthly?

Dr Wilkinson, locum to Dr Angeloglou, saw Sheila once on July 11th?. She injected her with 100mg of Haloperidol -HALF her usual dose- and understood that, according to her records, Sheila had been receiving monthly injections.

[APRIL]

The point is the amount detected in SC's blood at time of death was within the low end of the moderate range in terms of dosage 15ng/1ml.

Do you know the date SC received her last injection.  I don't know much about this.  Did she have to attend a clinic or was she able to self-administer?

Yeah. It was July 11th. Dr Angeloglou injected her at the surgery. I didn't know anything about fortnightly injection until today but I can't find anything to substantiate it.
CORRECTION. It was Dr Wilkinson who administered the injection and further to that wrote to Dr Ferguson regarding the dosage. I think there may have been problems with a cross over of letters.

[Holly Goodhead]

The emphasis seems to be on the dosage as opposed to the amounts detected in SC's liver and blood.  Surely this is more important as it relates to how the individual metabolises it? 

Was Dr Ferguson, psychiatrist, best placed to advise the court at trial on SC/Haloperidol?  Saying "You would have thought that Sheila would still have had the benefit of it as well as the effects" doesn't fill me with confidence.  Seems to me he doesn't have a clue! 

I would have expected a half decent defence to get a report from the manufacturers with all the facts and figures and maybe call an expert from the manufactuers eg a chemist. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Yeah. It was July 11th. Dr Angeloglou injected her at the surgery. I didn't know anything about fortnightly injection until today but I can't find anything to substantiate it.
CORRECTION. It was Dr Wilkinson who administered the injection and further to that wrote to Dr Ferguson regarding the dosage. I think there may have been problems with a cross over of letters.

Not sure how the injection worked.  I assume it was slow release so that at any given point in the month the same level of haloperidol was in SC's system?  If not then she sustained a big hit on day 1 and towards the end of the month very little left in her system which surely can't be right?  7th Aug was day 27 of the injection so she was due another imminently?  I haven't seen any mention of an appointment already made?  What constituted monthly?  11th of the month, every 28 days or what?   

[APRIL]

Not sure how the injection worked.  I assume it was slow release so that at any given point in the month the same level of haloperidol was in SC's system?  If not then she sustained a big hit on day 1 and towards the end of the month very little left in her system which surely can't be right?  7th Aug was day 27 of the injection so she was due another imminently?  I haven't seen any mention of an appointment already made?  What constituted monthly?  11th of the month, every 28 days or what?   

I'm sure you're right. Several million women could find themselves with a problem if the contraceptive jab gave a "big hit" during the first week and tailed off in the last week before the next one was due!!!! Not certain about what constitutes a month. Sure I read somewhere that it was a 6 week interval. Leaving that aside, I'd worked out her next one was due within a few days of her return to London.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm sure you're right. Several million women could find themselves with a problem if the contraceptive jab gave a "big hit" during the first week and tailed off in the last week before the next one was due!!!! Not certain about what constitutes a month. Sure I read somewhere that it was a 6 week interval. Leaving that aside, I'd worked out her next one was due within a few days of her return to London.

It seems the body absorbs it over a period of time.   

If SC received an injection on 2nd May and her last on 11th July the difference between these 2 periods is 10 weeks/70 days so it doesn't seem to fit with anything monthly. 

[APRIL]

It seems the body absorbs it over a period of time.   

If SC received an injection on 2nd May and her last on 11th July the difference between these 2 periods is 10 weeks/70 days so it doesn't seem to fit with anything monthly.

Well the reason for injecting was that Sheila forgot/refused to take oral meds. Maybe she forgot to go to her doctor for her injection. To give her the benefit of doubt, Christine was in England, so possibly Sheila's time was taken up with her?

[Caroline]

It seems the body absorbs it over a period of time.   

If SC received an injection on 2nd May and her last on 11th July the difference between these 2 periods is 10 weeks/70 days so it doesn't seem to fit with anything monthly.

Sheila was first prescribed haloperidol in March (can't find the exact date), this was while she was in hospital. It's not clear if she took the drug in tablet form at this point or injections but I suspect she received her first injection prior to being discharged. He GP then gave her another injection on 2nd of May (200mg), then another on 11th June (200mg) and finally on 11th July (100mg).

One thing I have noticed is that Ferguson stated that the GP wrote to him on 15th July to ask for the dose to be reduced BUT she had already done this prior making the request. Although Ferguson agreed that she was over sedated.

The crux is that Sheila had no interruption to her anti-psych meds and still had moderate levels in her system and still showed signs of over sedation. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Sheila was first prescribed haloperidol in March (can't find the exact date), this was while she was in hospital. It's not clear if she took the drug in tablet form at this point or injections but I suspect she received her first injection prior to being discharged. He GP then gave her another injection on 2nd of May (200mg), then another on 11th June (200mg) and finally on 11th July (100mg).

One thing I have noticed is that Ferguson stated that the GP wrote to him on 15th July to ask for the dose to be reduced BUT she had already done this prior making the request. Although Ferguson agreed that she was over sedated.

The crux is that Sheila had no interruption to her anti-psych meds and still had moderate levels in her system and still showed signs of over sedation.

Top Tip 4 Grand National:  One For Arthur.  I'll be right on this in the same way I'm right on WHF 

Yes I wasn't suggesting SC missed an injection between May and Jul just that it obviously didn't fit neatly into a monthly cycle.  Where did you find the info re 11th June?

Well we know at TOD the amount of Haloperidol detected in SC's blood was 15ng/1ml meaning she was in the lower end of the moderate dose. 

Myster posted the following, from CAL I believe:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8084.msg395532#msg395532

SC was prescribed other drugs:

- Procyclidene - counters problems with muscles and joints movement.

- Nortec - nocturnal sedative

- Triludan - anti-histamine

Toxicology tests only detected Haloperidol and cannabis:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750

What to make of this?  The reduced dosage alleviated any muscle/joint and sleeping issues? 

No idea whether Tridulan was related to Haloperidol.  I have read Haloperidol can cause skin irritation. I recall using Tridulan in the 80's for prickly heat caused by the sun.  I think it was also used for hay fever.

[puglove]

Top Tip 4 Grand National:  One For Arthur.  I'll be right on this in the same way I'm right on WHF 

Yes I wasn't suggesting SC missed an injection between May and Jul just that it obviously didn't fit neatly into a monthly cycle.  Where did you find the info re 11th June?

Well we know at TOD the amount of Haloperidol detected in SC's blood was 15ng/1ml meaning she was in the lower end of the moderate dose. 

Myster posted the following, from CAL I believe:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8084.msg395532#msg395532

SC was prescribed other drugs:

- Procyclidene - counters problems with muscles and joints movement.

- Nortec - nocturnal sedative

- Triludan - anti-histamine

Toxicology tests only detected Haloperidol and cannabis:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750

What to make of this?  The reduced dosage alleviated any muscle/joint and sleeping issues? 

No idea whether Tridulan was related to Haloperidol.  I have read Haloperidol can cause skin irritation. I recall using Tridulan in the 80's for prickly heat caused by the sun.  I think it was also used for hay fever.

Well done you, Holl! One of our pugs is called Arthur, so we cleaned up a bit, too!

I hope you're using your winnings for your reconstruction. Don't forget that Nevill was in bed at some stage, but might have got up (for many reasons, at his age) and was in a different part of the house when Bamber burst into the bedroom and shot June. So, maybe it was Bamber who shot Nevill on the stairs, and not Sheila.

That does actually work.


 

[Holly Goodhead]

Well done you, Holl! One of our pugs is called Arthur, so we cleaned up a bit, too!

I hope you're using your winnings for your reconstruction. Don't forget that Nevill was in bed at some stage, but might have got up (for many reasons, at his age) and was in a different part of the house when Bamber burst into the bedroom and shot June. So, maybe it was Bamber who shot Nevill on the stairs, and not Sheila.

That does actually work.


 

Tip from farmer friend who is into racing.  Nice win 

You're right there is a counter argument which I've posted about in the past: JB enters twins rooms and shoots them a total of 8 x's.  Reloads in their bedroom from ammo on his person.  Meanwhile NB wakes upon hearing a noise and leaves the bedroom to investigate.  JB enters the main bedroom via the box room.  Finding NB absent he shoots June x 5/6 (6 possible graze only GSW).  NB then returns to the direction of the main bedroom and meets JB on the stairs ie JB is standing at entrance of main bedroom and shoots NB on the landing stairs in the lip and jaw.  NB turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest GSW from behind whilst on the main stairs with JB behind.

I guess there are various themes on the above scenario but there's certainly a counter argument for the locations. IMO NB was definitely shot on the landing stairs x 2 facing into the master bedroom and x 2 on the main stairs facing down towards the hall but these locations still provide arguments for either JB or SC.   

[adam]

If Haloperidol prevented SC from being responsible and made it easy for JB to manipulate her have you any ideas why the prosecution didn't beat the drum about this at trial?

Please provide a source from a medical expert confirming any side-effects suffered by SC.

The whole prosecution argument was that Sheila could not have committed the massacre & that Bamber could control her.

My 'Effects of Haloperidol' thread on the blue forum show all the side effects. In Youtube videos & internet articles.

[Holly Goodhead]

The whole prosecution argument was that Sheila could not have committed the massacre & that Bamber could control her.

My 'Effects of Haloperidol' thread on the blue forum show all the side effects. In Youtube videos & internet articles.

The CoA doc sets out the areas of evidence the prosecution relied upon at trial and there's no mention of Haloperidol and/or JB controlling SC.  The reason being is that to advance this the prosecution would need expert evidence and there wasn't and isn't any.

151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:

i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;

ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;

iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;

iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;

v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:

a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;

b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;

c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;

d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;

e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and

f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.

vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:

a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and

b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.

vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:

a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;

b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;

c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;

d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and

e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.

viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.

With respect Adam your thread and general info re side effects of Haloperidol don't carry any weight.  You need expert evidence showing SC suffered from this that or the other at time of death and there isn't any. 
   

[Caroline]

With respect Adam your thread and general info re side effects of Haloperidol don't carry any weight.  You need expert evidence showing SC suffered from this that or the other at time of death and there isn't any. 
 

There is evidence from her doctor and psychiatrist and the fact that the meds were reduced because of side effects.

[Holly Goodhead]

There is evidence from her doctor and psychiatrist and the fact that the meds were reduced because of side effects.

Yes and when SC was receiving the higher dose (200mg) she was also prescribed other drugs to counter the effects.  These other drugs were not detected in toxicology tests.  You have stated SC received her last injection (100mg) on 11th June.  Therefore the higher dose was out of her system by TOD and any side-effects diminished.