For Those That Believe JB Guilty...

[Myster]

I assume it was on medical grounds rather than cosmetic?

How coincidental that she was coming up for release soon after.  To disguise her former appearance, do you think?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191389/Road-rage-murderer-Tracie-Andrews-gets-5-000-plastic-surgery-taxpayers-expense.html

[adam]

It was 19 days before Andrews was arrested.

In high profile cases the police have to be sure.

[Holly Goodhead]

It was 19 days before Andrews was arrested.

In high profile cases the police have to be sure.

The case is far simpler than WHF.  Stabbings are an everyday occurrence.  As such all concerned have experience with this type of soc.  Not so with ballistics.  The WHF case is first and foremost about ballistics.  Can you identify another peacetime shooting  in the UK other than where the perp was identified by multiple witnesses eg Ryan, Hamilton, Bird etc?  On this basis alone WHF is unique, I think? 

The evidence against her seems overwhelming.  I think some people are hardwired for aggression and violence like Pit Bull Terriers! 

[Holly Goodhead]

How coincidental that she was coming up for release soon after.  To disguise her former appearance, do you think?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191389/Road-rage-murderer-Tracie-Andrews-gets-5-000-plastic-surgery-taxpayers-expense.html

Well apparently she has changed her name but the state hasn't bothered with a formal new identity.  I think in the main this tends to be reserved for those convicted of some sort of child abuse/murder.  Talking of which I watched an interesting docu the other eve about child killer Mary Bell. 

[Myster]

The case is far simpler than WHF.  Stabbings are an everyday occurrence. 

So why didn't SC grab a cook's knife from the kitchen drawer to do the deed?  Much easier than loading and aiming a rifle, especially one that she'd never used before, don't you think?

[Holly Goodhead]

So why didn't SC grab a cook's knife from the kitchen drawer to do the deed?  Much easier than loading and aiming a rifle, especially one that she'd never used before, don't you think?

As far as I can see a rifle is far more efficient and lethal than a knife?  I don't believe there's anything remotely complicated about using that particular rifle and shooting at very close distance mainly immobile targets.  If more women had access to firearms in this country the crime rates would be correspondingly higher.  Had Andrews lived in the US she may well have pulled a handgun from her handbag or from LH's glove box. 

[John]

I have never understood the argument that NB would simply have relieved SC of the rifle.

Women are capable of aggressive and violent acts whether they suffer mental illness or not. 

What is there to understand Holly, Nevill was a WW2 veteran and very capable when confronted by someone with a gun.  Having Sheila waving a .22 rifle in front of his nose would have incensed him into immediate action.  Telephoning the pussy down the road would never have entered his thoughts IMO.  He would have taken her out with one bash no problem.

[John]

As far as I can see a rifle is far more efficient and lethal than a knife?  I don't believe there's anything remotely complicated about using that particular rifle and shooting at very close distance mainly immobile targets.  If more women had access to firearms in this country the crime rates would be correspondingly higher.  Had Andrews lived in the US she may well have pulled a handgun from her handbag or from LH's glove box.

Nobody except an amateur uses a rifle in an enclosed space within a house as it is clumsy and easily caught as evidenced by the grappling contest over the kitchen table in which the ceiling lantern was smashed and a piece broken off the rifle stock.

Nevill put up a brave fight with Jerry Bamber even though he had already been shot four or five times.

[steve_trousers]

I've seen a wide variety of figures quoted for the number of stab wounds LH sustained.  Typically ranging from 30 - 42.  Where does the severed jugular feature?  I've attached an image of the murder weapon. 

This devastating injury tells the whole story, and how she was able to kill him with a penknife and only walk away with a black eye.
In our case we know there was a prolonged, climactic struggle in the kitchen with the gun. A fight we know sheila couldn't possibly have emerged completely clean and unscathed from.

On the other point. I think without a shadow of a doubt Nevill would have tried to talk her down himself, long before calling 999 or Len or even his pot smoking playboy son. And particularly If as you suggested the shooting had not begun yet.

[adam]

The case is far simpler than WHF.  Stabbings are an everyday occurrence.  As such all concerned have experience with this type of soc.  Not so with ballistics.  The WHF case is first and foremost about ballistics.  Can you identify another peacetime shooting  in the UK other than where the perp was identified by multiple witnesses eg Ryan, Hamilton, Bird etc?  On this basis alone WHF is unique, I think? 

The evidence against her seems overwhelming.  I think some people are hardwired for aggression and violence like Pit Bull Terriers!

That is what I was saying. The Andrews case was simpler but still took 19 days before an arrest.

It only took 11 more days before Bamber was arrested. Despite a crime which had been planned for months. Which negates the view there was a big stance change.

Evidence has to processed & statements taken. Then you have people like Andrews & Bamber leading the police in the wrong direction. The police have to follow those leads as Andrews & Bamber were the only alive witnesses who had approached the police.

[Holly Goodhead]

Nobody except an amateur uses a rifle in an enclosed space within a house as it is clumsy and easily caught as evidenced by the grappling contest over the kitchen table in which the ceiling lantern was smashed and a piece broken off the rifle stock.

Nevill put up a brave fight with Jerry Bamber even though he had already been shot four or five times.

Surely nobody discharges a rifle in a residential dwelling other than maybe police/military for mock ups/training exercise and those on a dangerous path eg criminals or the mentally ill.  And potential victims for self-defence.   

The pathologist described NB's efforts as a "spirited defence".  If it was anything more than this then why did SC or JB walk away unscathed? 

The pathology reports detail NB's upstairs gsw's as:

- Facial wounds were life threatening.  Causing severe pain and loss of blood internally and externally.
- Total impairment to left arm

Dr Vanezis did not produce his autopsy report until 30th Sept.  By this time JB had already been charged with 5 murders and some had already decided there was a "violent struggle" in the kitchen between NB and JB.  The pathology report suggests otherwise along with Dr Vanezis' further report dated 16th May 1986.

[Holly Goodhead]

What is there to understand Holly, Nevill was a WW2 veteran and very capable when confronted by someone with a gun.  Having Sheila waving a .22 rifle in front of his nose would have incensed him into immediate action.  Telephoning the pussy down the road would never have entered his thoughts IMO.  He would have taken her out with one bash no problem.

Yes NB was a WW2 veteran and it makes no sense to me that if JB opened fire in the master bedroom he would squander 5 or 6 bullets on June, a petite woman of perhaps a slightly anxious disposition, and allow his greatest adversary to escape the bedroom. 

We don't know that SC was waving a .22 in front of NB's nose.  I read a post on Blue the other day suggesting SC may have locked herself in the downstairs bathroom with the rifle.  In this scenario what was NB to do break the door down?  Maybe he called JB for assistance.  Meanwhile SC left the bathroom and went upstairs and shot June with NB leaving the phone on the kitchen top and then sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which is what the physical evidence suggests. 

[Holly Goodhead]

This devastating injury tells the whole story, and how she was able to kill him with a penknife and only walk away with a black eye.
In our case we know there was a prolonged, climactic struggle in the kitchen with the gun. A fight we know sheila couldn't possibly have emerged completely clean and unscathed from.

On the other point. I think without a shadow of a doubt Nevill would have tried to talk her down himself, long before calling 999 or Len or even his pot smoking playboy son. And particularly If as you suggested the shooting had not begun yet.

It seems Andrews stabbed LH a total of 42 times.  Which wound do you believe was the "devastaing" one and when did it occur amonst the other 41? 

Neither SC or JB presented with any defense wounds from any "struggle" in the kitchen.

We have no real idea what NB did or didn't do.  We can only ever know for certain what the physical evidence allows us to know. 

[Holly Goodhead]

That is what I was saying. The Andrews case was simpler but still took 19 days before an arrest.

It only took 11 more days before Bamber was arrested. Despite a crime which had been planned for months. Which negates the view there was a big stance change.

Evidence has to processed & statements taken. Then you have people like Andrews & Bamber leading the police in the wrong direction. The police have to follow those leads as Andrews & Bamber were the only alive witnesses who had approached the police.

I don't see any positive correlation between the time it takes the police to make an arrest and identifying the perp?

Chris Jerrieries was arrested before Vincent Tabak. 

Stefan Kizsko and Sean Hodgson served lengthy prison sentences before DNA evidence showed they had been wrongly convicted and by definition arrested.

In the WHF case some of the most important evidence wasn't made available until AFTER JB had been charged: pathology report along with an additional report from the pathologist.   

[John]

Surely nobody discharges a rifle in a residential dwelling other than maybe police/military for mock ups/training exercise and those on a dangerous path eg criminals or the mentally ill.  And potential victims for self-defence.   

The pathologist described NB's efforts as a "spirited defence".  If it was anything more than this then why did SC or JB walk away unscathed? 

The pathology reports detail NB's upstairs gsw's as:

- Facial wounds were life threatening.  Causing severe pain and loss of blood internally and externally.
- Total impairment to left arm

Dr Vanezis did not produce his autopsy report until 30th Sept.  By this time JB had already been charged with 5 murders and some had already decided there was a "violent struggle" in the kitchen between NB and JB.  The pathology report suggests otherwise along with Dr Vanezis' further report dated 16th May 1986.

Jeremy Bamber had marks on his arm.