Author Topic: Questions about the relatives and their involvement with the silencer:  (Read 10011 times)

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Offline adam

Had the relatives ever been in trouble with the law before ?

Did the relatives know there was no other evidence which showed Sheila was the killer.

Did the relatives know about back splatter.

Did the relatives know there was no back splatter already on the rifle nozzle.

Did the relatives know that one of Sheila's shots was a contact shot.

Did the relatives know the rifle with the silencer on was too long for Sheila to shoot herself.

Did the relatives know where to get Sheila's blood.

If unable to get Sheila's blood, did the relatives know what blood type she was.

Did the relatives know who in the family had Sheila's blood type.

Did the relatives know how to expertly put Sheila's blood/blood type into the silencer. Creating the back splatter effect.

Did the relatives know when WHF was empty so they could go back and scratch the aga.

Did the relatives know how to scratch the aga to suggest a kitchen fight.

Did the relatives know that the crime scene photos did not already include pictures of the aga without the scratch's. 

Did the relatives know where to get a strand of Nevill's hair.

Did the relatives know the risks in attempting this frame and the punishment if found.

Did the relatives know that each other could be completely trusted in a big crime committe

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« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:06:42 AM by John »

Offline adam

Hopefully there will be some good answers to these questions. It has been extremley hard work on the blue forum with these questions.

Only one poster answered all 16 questions and that was on the basis that the relatives also committed the massacre ! 

The questions were created after a poster said the relatives fabricated the silencer. Then instantly the same poster said she "doesn't need to address any questions" to support her serious accusation. 

Yesterday another poster accused the relatives of fabricating the silencer. But after several requests only 4 of the 16 questions were answered. Unconvincingly in my view.

Another poster surfaced on the thread but that was just to post creepy 'gish gash' posts in red. Which meant nothing and did not answer any of the questions.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:57:30 AM by adam »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Had the relatives ever been in trouble with the law before ?
No idea but BW made an official complaint to EP about PE and what she considered was financial irregularity.

Did the relatives know there was no other evidence which showed Sheila was the killer.

Well Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones seemed pretty certain SC was responsible in the early stages.  DCI Kennelly (spelling) undertook a further review and formed the same opinion. 
 
Did the relatives know about back splatter.

They were obviously knowledgable about firearms in the context of farming/hunting but unlikely to be forensically aware.  I have asked farmer friends and they inform me the only time blood from an animal comes into contact with a firearm is where something has been wounded and is then put out its misery be breaking its neck and blood from hands then touches the firearm  8)><(

Did the relatives know there was no back splatter already on the rifle nozzle.

Only if they made enquiries or were told.
 
Did the relatives know that one of Sheila's shots was a contact shot.

Only if they made enquiries or were told.

Did the relatives know the rifle with the silencer on was too long for Sheila to shoot herself.
You asked this in the other thread.
 
Did the relatives know where to get Sheila's blood.

Not in sufficient quantity to produce the blood group results from inside the silencer

If unable to get Sheila's blood, did the relatives know what blood type she was.

Unlikely they even knew SC's ABO group.  I think we can safely assume they would have zero idea about SC's enzyme and protein groups.

Did the relatives know who in the family had Sheila's blood type.
Extremley unlikely

Did the relatives know how to expertly put Sheila's blood/blood type into the silencer. Creating the back splatter effect.

The blood found in the silencer wasn't compatible with drawback in terms of the stain pattern.  GSW's produce a mist like spray not flakes.  Unlikely the relatives were this forensically aware.

Did the relatives know when WHF was empty so they could go back and scratch the aga.
Yes.  They had the free run of WHF from about 5pm 9th Aug when police handed keys over.  I have always thought it strange how PE and Cris Nevill stayed in CN's campervan on night of 10th Aug ostensibly to maintain security and protect the valuables.  This makes little sense to me.  A newly fitted alarm had been fitted.  And during the day on 10th Aug all valuables were removed including firearms.   

Did the relatives know how to scratch the aga to suggest a kitchen fight.

I haven't seen any expert evidence analysing the scratches in terms of whether or not they supported a fight.  I don't think anyone including staff at FSS were that forensically aware then. 

Did the relatives know that the crime scene photos did not already include pictures of the aga without the scratch's.

Unlikely unless they asked or were told by others
 
Did the relatives know where to get a strand of Nevill's hair.

Yes they would be all over the place: car, back of chairs, hats, coats, jackets, combs.
 
Did the relatives know the risks in attempting this frame and the punishment if found.

We don't know the relatives attempted a frame.  If they did they might have been aided and abetted by the police and thought it was ok and they would get away with it.

Did the relatives know that each other could be completely trusted in a big crime committe

We don't they were involved in anything criminal.  If they were it may have amounted to one or two. 

Phew  &%5y%  What do all these questions and answers mean Adam?

Have you considered that the blood on the outside, paint and hair might have been fabricated to create the idea the silencer was used.  Ie it may have been initially geared towards NB was beaten with it hence the paint and hair (blood externally unknown).  When this was deemed insufficient others fabricated the blood internally and blood test results as we know them. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Thanks. Hopefully it only took 5 minutes to answer. It only took me 5 minuted to type the questions after another poster accused the relatives of fabricating the silencer.

A lot of these questions relate to obstacles the relatives had in attempting a frame. So need answers to either show these obstacles could be overcome, or that they couldn't.


From you're answers it seems you do not believe the relatives fabricated the silencer. As they would have to find out a lot of specific information which Taff wasn't going to tell them & Stan Jones may not know. Officers may also get suspiscious if too many detailed questions were asked.

You have also said it is very unlikely that the relatives could get Sheila's blood or knew what blood type she was.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 02:07:33 PM by adam »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Thanks. Hopefully it only took 5 minutes to answer. It only took me 5 minuted to type the questions after another poster accused the relatives of fabricating the silencer.

A lot of these questions relate to obstacles the relatives had in attempting a frame. So need answers to either show these obstacles could be overcome, or that they couldn't.

From you're answers it seems you do not believe the relatives fabricated the silencer. As they would have to find out a lot of specific information which Taff wasn't going to tell them & Stan Jones may not know. You have also said it is very unlikely that the relatives could get Sheila's blood or knew what blood type she was.

As I said I think it is possible two frames existed.  Initially an attempt to demonstrate the silencer was used and put away.  The idea at that time was possibly to show it had been attached when NB sustained a beating hence the paint and hair.  Blood tests on the outside were inconclusive.  It's unclear (to me) when victims' blood samples were handed over to EP.  If EP were still in possession of them when the silencer went to FSS on 13th Aug then it may have been NB's blood on the outside.  If EP knew it wasn't possible to type such a small sample they may have added anyone's blood.

The flake found inside the silencer wasn't identified until 12th Sept.  This was sophisticated for the time and if fabricated involved person(s) forensically aware.  Difficult to see how this didn't involve the lab.  I would suggest a senior member of EP, DCI level or higher and a senior manager at FSS along with a practitioner.  Obviously this was all done on the basis all concerned believed JB guilty aka noble cause corruption. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Looking at the answers and other posters unable to answer the relatives & Stan Jones questions, it can be concluded it was impossible for either to frame Bamber single handedly.

Only two conclusions can be reached -

Stan Jones & the relstives worked together in the frame:

Stan Jones attempting a solo frame, still needed the relatives to lie in their witness statements and say they found the silencer.

The relatives didn't have Sheila's blood or enough crime scene information to individually frame Bamber.


Neither Stan Jones or the relatives framed Bamber:

The silencer was found by the relatives with blood, paint and a white hair. After tests it came back as human & Sheila's blood and the aga paint. There was no fabricating.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 06:04:38 PM by adam »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Adam according to AE when DS Jones was taking paint samples from AGA he said to AE if anyone asks what we're doing here "we're just measuring up".  I guess this could be because they were up to no good or they didn't want others to know about the paint on the silencer. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3586

It doesn't fill me with confidence they were acting professionally when again according to AE DS Jones removed a pair of SC's shoes and said "you haven't seen this"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3588

DS Jones and DI Miller then went over to Oak Farm and spent an hour polishing off a bottle of whisky between them with PE.  According to AE they weren't drunk when they left.  That's reassuring then! Hic, hic, hic  *&*%£

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3594;image

Typical bottle of spirit = 700ml
Typical strength of whisky = 40% abv
700ml x 40%abv/1000ml = 28 units/3 persons = 9.33 units per person.  Almost certain DS Jones and DI Miller were over the drink drive limit.

Lets all party on down at the farm  8(*( 8(*( 8(*(

Did DS Jones have a drink problem?  He drank alcohol at JB's on 7th Aug after taking JB's WS.  Then on 12th Aug at Oak Farm when he picked up the silencer.  And as above.  Or was this just a cultural thing then?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Adam according to AE when DS Jones was taking paint samples from AGA he said to AE if anyone asks what we're doing here "we're just measuring up".  I guess this could be because they were up to no good or they didn't want others to know about the paint on the silencer. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3586

It doesn't fill me with confidence they were acting professionally when again according to AE DS Jones removed a pair of SC's shoes and said "you haven't seen this"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3588

DS Jones and DI Miller then went over to Oak Farm and spent an hour polishing off a bottle of whisky between them with PE.  According to AE they weren't drunk when they left.  That's reassuring then! Hic, hic, hic  *&*%£

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3594;image

Typical bottle of spirit = 700ml
Typical strength of whisky = 40% abv
700ml x 40%abv/1000ml = 28 units/3 persons = 9.33 units per person.  Almost certain DS Jones and DI Miller were over the drink drive limit.

Lets all party on down at the farm  8(*( 8(*( 8(*(

Did DS Jones have a drink problem?  He drank alcohol at JB's on 7th Aug after taking JB's WS.  Then on 12th Aug at Oak Farm when he picked up the silencer.  And as above.  Or was this just a cultural thing then?

Not sure what Stan Jones drinking has got to do with the silencer.

Do you believe it was a joint effort or that there was no fabricating at all ?

Must admit it is surprising that several law abiding citizens & a police officer jointly & suddenly became so devious. Stan Jones didn't even have any potential financial rewards.

Offline APRIL

Adam according to AE when DS Jones was taking paint samples from AGA he said to AE if anyone asks what we're doing here "we're just measuring up".  I guess this could be because they were up to no good or they didn't want others to know about the paint on the silencer. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3586

It doesn't fill me with confidence they were acting professionally when again according to AE DS Jones removed a pair of SC's shoes and said "you haven't seen this"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3588

DS Jones and DI Miller then went over to Oak Farm and spent an hour polishing off a bottle of whisky between them with PE.  According to AE they weren't drunk when they left.  That's reassuring then! Hic, hic, hic  *&*%£

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3594;image

Typical bottle of spirit = 700ml
Typical strength of whisky = 40% abv
700ml x 40%abv/1000ml = 28 units/3 persons = 9.33 units per person.  Almost certain DS Jones and DI Miller were over the drink drive limit.

Lets all party on down at the farm  8(*( 8(*( 8(*(

Did DS Jones have a drink problem?  He drank alcohol at JB's on 7th Aug after taking JB's WS.  Then on 12th Aug at Oak Farm when he picked up the silencer.  And as above.  Or was this just a cultural thing then?

I think it was very much a cultural thing. It was seen as a way of bonding. It loosened tongues. Some were very skilled at appearing to be much more inebriated than they actually were.

Offline Myster

Adam according to AE when DS Jones was taking paint samples from AGA he said to AE if anyone asks what we're doing here "we're just measuring up".  I guess this could be because they were up to no good or they didn't want others to know about the paint on the silencer. 

Definitely the latter, because SJ didn't want AE giving Jeremy Bamber advance warning of what they discovered in case he was later questioned about the hidden moderator. Ron Cook took the sample, not Stan Jones.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Not sure what Stan Jones drinking has got to do with the silencer.

Do you believe it was a joint effort or that there was no fabricating at all ?

Must admit it is surprising that several law abiding citizens & a police officer jointly & suddenly became so devious. Stan Jones didn't even have any potential financial rewards.

Today drinking on duty would be a disciplinary offence.  If drinking on the job wasn't the norm in 1985 then it might show DS Jones was somewhat of a liability!

You need to bear in mind the blood on the outside was minimal and not capable of being typed.  A complete contrast with the blood found iJnside.  Did the relatives have access to any watery blood?  Or if they were just attempting to show it was on when NB sustained a beating a blood relative of NB's may have fabricated it on the basis they may have shared the same blood group or just hoped to wing it.  All unlikely I'm just putting it out there.  On balance I think it was more likely a boy in blue from EP.  I don't like to name names without firm evidence.

If the police believe someone is responsible for a serious crime and fear the perp getting off then they may well fabricate evidence.  We know it happens.  If the rellies were also convinced they may have gone along with it.  Maybe they didnt inspect it and believed what they were told by the police ie blood, paint and hair.

We don't know whether any police offer was offered any inducements.  What conversations took place over these bottles of whisky.  If no financial inducement then maybe it was a power thing ie playing God. 

Man U winning Europa league final.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

I think it was very much a cultural thing. It was seen as a way of bonding. It loosened tongues. Some were very skilled at appearing to be much more inebriated than they actually were.

Maybe.  Did they drink in tv cop shows mid 80's I can't recall. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline APRIL

Maybe.  Did they drink in tv cop shows mid 80's I can't recall.

Kojak sucked lollies 8(>((

Offline Myster

Kojak sucked lollies 8(>((

Bourbon-flavored? 

(N.B. note the correct Yankee spelling).
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline APRIL

Bourbon-flavored? 

(N.B. note the correct Yankee spelling).

You're on the ball this morning, Myster @)(++(*