Apartment Key

[Miss Taken Identity]

You mean when they were caught out?   

As for being taken, why did they search the apartment, the gardens and the nearby streets if she had been taken?  Did they really expect everyone to believe someone went into their apartment and lifted Madeleine who quietly complied, took her outside and dumped her in a roadside dumpster?

Exactly and as I had pointd this out previously on an earlier thread last year, Did they really believe that an 'abductor' would hang about with a child waiting to be caught?

This leave some more possible theories
woke and wandered- fell down a 'well' of sorts
woke and wandered and was rescued by a passer by... maybe a good person or maybe a paedophile
woke and wandered was knocked down killed and body disposed of by frightened driver
woke and wandered hit and run' and left at side of road dying and found by tapas person
( who panicked as how would they explain this).
There is another two theories which I will not post.

[sadie]

I have no problem with your story Sadie as long as it's not presented as fact.

I have presented it as theory, but it has a decent chance of being correct.

My main purpose Gunit was to show that several things that you have said were not correct.

You still haven'y conceded that a watcher on the balcony opposite could see the close approach to the front door and to then patio door.  He could see Gerry leaving and signal to someone , a potential abductor, standing in the area just in front of the very hidden and dark friont door.  A watcher could also signal to a potential abductor standing in the pathway in front of Madelindow.

he could also watch any of the parents as they came and went from the apartment etc.


When are you going to concede that a watcher could see all these places Gunit.  It was YOU that challenged me and now I have proved it, you have gone quiet.

[Miss Taken Identity]

I have presented it as theory, but it has a decent chance of being correct.

My main purpose Gunit was to show that several things that you have said were not correct.

You still haven'y conceded that a watcher on the balcony opposite could see the close approach to the front door and to then patio door.  He could see Gerry leaving and signal to someone , a potential abductor, standing in the area just in front of the very hidden and dark friont door.  A watcher could also signal to a potential abductor standing in the pathway in front of Madelindow.

he could also watch any of the parents as they came and went from the apartment etc.


When are you going to concede that a watcher could see all these places Gunit.  It was YOU that challenged me and now I have proved it, you have gone quiet.

Sorry Sadie, but you haven't proved anything. Just added a theory, which is without  any evidence.

I still belive the key is a worthless argument as a  key did not have to be used. Door was left unlocked and the locked door didn't show a patern of Tapas passing on keys to each other for checks.

[Robittybob1]

Sorry Sadie, but you haven't proved anything. Just added a theory, which is without  any evidence.

I still belive the key is a worthless argument as a  key did not have to be used. Door was left unlocked and the locked door didn't show a patern of Tapas passing on keys to each other for checks.

A key doesn't have to be used to open it from the inside, but to close it behind you you need a key.  Are you disputing this?

[Robittybob1]

I have presented it as theory, but it has a decent chance of being correct.

My main purpose Gunit was to show that several things that you have said were not correct.

You still haven'y conceded that a watcher on the balcony opposite could see the close approach to the front door and to then patio door.  He could see Gerry leaving and signal to someone , a potential abductor, standing in the area just in front of the very hidden and dark friont door.  A watcher could also signal to a potential abductor standing in the pathway in front of Madelindow.

he could also watch any of the parents as they came and went from the apartment etc.


When are you going to concede that a watcher could see all these places Gunit.  It was YOU that challenged me and now I have proved it, you have gone quiet.

How does a person get onto the balcony that is in your photo Sadie?  Isn't a balcony part of a private residence?

[ShiningInLuz]

A key doesn't have to be used to open it from the inside, but to close it behind you you need a key.  Are you disputing this?

You must have some odd door locks in NZ.

You can simply pull the front door closed, in which case a key is required to get in.  (Or a credit card.)

Or, in addition to pulling the front door closed, you can also use a key to extend the security bar.

We tend not to use the security bar if we are going out for short lengths of time.  We do use it if we are going out for long periods.  And we use it overnight when we are in.

Amaral had the door checked and allegedly found it could not be opened from the outside with a credit card, but I'm dubious about that if the security bar had not been deployed.

[Mr Gray]

You must have some odd door locks in NZ.

You can simply pull the front door closed, in which case a key is required to get in.  (Or a credit card.)

Or, in addition to pulling the front door closed, you can also use a key to extend the security bar.

We tend not to use the security bar if we are going out for short lengths of time.  We do use it if we are going out for long periods.  And we use it overnight when we are in.

Amaral had the door checked and allegedly found it could not be opened from the outside with a credit card, but I'm dubious about that if the security bar had not been deployed.

is this credit card just something that posters have seen in films......surely there is an extension to the architrave which mekes the credit card myth impossible

[Robittybob1]

You must have some odd door locks in NZ.

You can simply pull the front door closed, in which case a key is required to get in.  (Or a credit card.)

Or, in addition to pulling the front door closed, you can also use a key to extend the security bar.

We tend not to use the security bar if we are going out for short lengths of time.  We do use it if we are going out for long periods.  And we use it overnight when we are in.

Amaral had the door checked and allegedly found it could not be opened from the outside with a credit card, but I'm dubious about that if the security bar had not been deployed.

There was the video of the cleaners and they had to manually pull on the latch to close  the door, it was simply slammed shut.

[Robittybob1]

No so Robby.  Anyone leaving by the front door simply pulled it shut. To double lock it while inside required the bar to be slid across.   We don't know if the double lock was engaged on the night Madeleine disappeared.

The cleaners in their interview had to manually pull the anti-slam device back to close the door, so I don't agree with you yet.  Unless you have some other proof it can just be slammed shut, or pulled closed behind you without at least turning the door handle.

The double lock bolt was the square above the latch.

[Mr Gray]

Cons – its highly unlikely it will work! I have been out to a few jobs where the customer has tried to open their door with a credit card and the broken card is still wedged in the door when I arrive. A credit card could work on an internal door in a house to open a basic latch or cupboard lock etc as these doors can be thin. However, the main reason it won’t work on a main door lock is that the credit card is neither flexible or long enough. When a locksmith try’s to ‘slip’ open a Yale type lock they use special card called ‘mica card’ which is around double the length of a credit card and so flexible it can fold totally back on itself. This type of card is needed because to get to the latch on a Yale type lock, the card needs to be flexible enough to bend around 2 corners and travel into the frame (up 4 four inches) to reach the latch of the lock.

http://www.alcatraz-edinburghlocksmiths.co.uk/blog/open-a-locked-door-with-credit-card/

[Eleanor]

How does a person get onto the balcony that is in your photo Sadie?  Isn't a balcony part of a private residence?

The balcony is on a communal staircase.

[ShiningInLuz]

The cleaners in their interview had to manually pull the anti-slam device back to close the door, so I don't agree with you yet.  Unless you have some other proof it can just be slammed shut, or pulled closed behind you without at least turning the door handle.

There isn't an 'anti-slam device'.  You can just pull it closed from the outside.

There isn't a turnable door handle on the outside.  It's a fixed door knob that you can use to pull the door closed.

I can't think of a house we have ever had with a turnable exterior door handle.

[Miss Taken Identity]

A key doesn't have to be used to open it from the inside, but to close it behind you you need a key.  Are you disputing this?

No, I am saying you need a key to get into the apartment via the locked door, so once the check has beem made and the person leaves and the door is locked [by what ever method] the next person would need the key if they were using the 'locked 'door. did they pass this key back and forth or did they use the unlocked door?
I am also saying that if the doors are left unlocked then there is no need for a key. There was no sign of any locks being 'picked'.

Hmm

[Robittybob1]

There isn't an 'anti-slam device'.  You can just pull it closed from the outside.

There isn't a turnable door handle on the outside.  It's a fixed door knob that you can use to pull the door closed.

I can't think of a house we have ever had with a turnable exterior door handle.

I pointed out the anti-slam device was pointed out to the forum
You can see the latch with the sloped leading edge.  but behind that is the anti-slam device (longer rectangular metal block).  It won't close till this is pulled back.

[Robittybob1]

I think that the lock was a single cylinder deadlock. That means it could be opened from inside by turning a kind of knob, but from the outside only with a key. The knob on the outside is for pulling it closed; it doesn't seem to do anything else. On the inside is a sort of knob on the lock. This is what you would use if answering the door.

So from the inside you got out by turning the knob thing, then just pulled it to with the outside door knob. For security the key could be inserted to activate the deadbolt. From the inside the deadbolt is applied by using a thumb turn.

However it's left the door can't be opened from the outside without a key. From the inside you just turn the knob unless the thumb turn has been used.

Wrong for the latch part has been split into two parts.  What you describe is the more simpler version without the anti-slam prevention.