Apartment Key

[Angelo222]

When Kate returned to the apartment at 10pm & discovered Madeleine was missing she did not venture outside the front door, merely looked out the window. One explanation for that is the door was double-locked & Gerry had the key with him in the Tapas Bar.
I find it difficult to believe that the parents left the key in the apartment during dinner because, in the event of the patio door jamming or being locked by a mischievous child, they'd have been in a bit of a bother.

That's not true Misty, the key of the front door was left on the kitchen countertop.   That's why Gerry had to change his statement after originally telling poliice that he entered the apartment via the front door.  An impossibity when the key was left inside.

[misty]

That's not true Misty, the key of the front door was left on the kitchen countertop.   That's why Gerry had to change his statement after originally telling poliice that he entered the apartment via the front door.  An impossibity when the key was left inside.

It may have been photographed/seen by the GNR in the kitchen but is there a cite for Kate or Gerry saying they left it in the apartment during dinner?

[misty]

Have you not looked closely at the two bolts on the door mechanism?   

The bottom bolt is called the latch bolt and is tapered in order to allow it to engage the strike plate easily. It is this bolt which engages when the door is closed. From the inside you pull the slide to open it. From the outside you need the key to retract it.

The top bolt is square in profile and is called the deadbolt.  This bolt has to be engaged and disengaged with the key.

From this you must surely understand that the key is always needed to enter from the outside. The key retracts both the deadbolt and the latch bolt when turned fully.

Most door locks allow them to be pulled shut, the Chub for example has to be locked back to disable this function. However, the default setting allows you to pull the door closed behind you.  People don't want to have to physically lock an outside door every time they leave a property.

There is an additional piece of metal on the latch bolt which may prevent the door from just being pulled closed. Looking at pictures of locks, the extra piece of metal does not appear to be standard. As Rob has already said, it looks like an anti-slam device so you cannot be locked out without your key - you need the key outside to properkly close the door.

[Angelo222]

There is an additional piece of metal on the latch bolt which may prevent the door from just being pulled closed. Looking at pictures of locks, the extra piece of metal does not appear to be standard. As Rob has already said, it looks like an anti-slam device so you cannot be locked out without your key - you need the key outside to properkly close the door.

You're right there is and it appears to be a second deadlock associated with the sliding lever.

That would imply therefore that the key was needed to retract the latch bolt from the inside too.

[G-Unit]

When Kate returned to the apartment at 10pm & discovered Madeleine was missing she did not venture outside the front door, merely looked out the window. One explanation for that is the door was double-locked & Gerry had the key with him in the Tapas Bar.
I find it difficult to believe that the parents left the key in the apartment during dinner because, in the event of the patio door jamming or being locked by a mischievous child, they'd have been in a bit of a bother.

Locks requiring a key to get out are a fire hazard and are therefore rare. The key wasn't needed to get out of 5A , just to get in imo. Here's Matthew's clear and concise description of how the door worked (not);

There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

[misty]

Locks requiring a key to get out are a fire hazard and are therefore rare. The key wasn't needed to get out of 5A , just to get in imo. Here's Matthew's clear and concise description of how the door worked (not);

There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

I agree that the key wasn't needed to get out of the apartment - you only used the lever (as demonstrated by GA in TTOTL https://youtu.be/LXpFm-kDFWk?t=2621). What we're trying to establish is whether the door could actually be closed from the outside without the use of a key. If Madeleine had wandered out through the front door & the door needed a key from the outside to close it, then who closed the door behind her?

[Robittybob1]

You're right there is and it appears to be a second deadlock associated with the sliding lever.

That would imply therefore that the key was needed to retract the latch bolt from the inside too.

We saw the cleaners drawing that just by pulling on the hook.

[G-Unit]

I agree that the key wasn't needed to get out of the apartment - you only used the lever (as demonstrated by GA in TTOTL https://youtu.be/LXpFm-kDFWk?t=2621). What we're trying to establish is whether the door could actually be closed from the outside without the use of a key. If Madeleine had wandered out through the front door & the door needed a key from the outside to close it, then who closed the door behind her?

I don't think the door needed a key to close it from the outside. If you arrived home you used the key to get in then closed it behind you just like a door with a yale lock. If you could do that from the inside, doesn't it follow that you could do it from the outside?

[misty]

I don't think the door needed a key to close it from the outside. If you arrived home you used the key to get in then closed it behind you just like a door with a yale lock. If you could do that from the inside, doesn't it follow that you could do it from the outside?

It's not like a Yale lock, though, that's the whole point. The lower latch has that extra piece of metal. Maybe you had to use the lever to close the door from the inside?
(I would disregard MO's statement because he was speaking about the lock in 5B, not 5A).

[Benice]

That's not true Misty, the key of the front door was left on the kitchen countertop.   That's why Gerry had to change his statement after originally telling poliice that he entered the apartment via the front door.  An impossibity when the key was left inside.

A credible cite please for Gerry claiming to have left the keys on the kitchen countertop when they went out.

The fact that the keys were seen on the countertop after the police arrived  in no way proves when they were put there.

IMO

[John]

You're right there is and it appears to be a second deadlock associated with the sliding lever.

That would imply therefore that the key was needed to retract the latch bolt from the inside too.

I think the secondary deadlock (lower) is there so that the door cannot close accidentally as long as it is slid across.

[John]

The photo below shows a more modern version of the same Yale rim lock with the 2-throw bolt.

Specifications:
Latch operated from outside by key and from inside by pull lever
Bolt operated by key on inside and outside




http://www.yaleasia.com/en/yale/yale-asia/products/yale-lock-cases/yale-rim-locks/italian-style-classic-rim-lock-series/yale-italian-style-class-rim-lock-double-cylinder/

[misty]

I think the secondary deadlock (lower) is there so that the door cannot close accidentally as long as it is slid across.

That's not the door to 5A & the lower latch is different.

[John]

That's not the door to 5A & the lower latch is different.

It is from apartment 6a, same mechanism but a slightly newer version.

The Chaves do Areeiro lock fitted to 5a is actually a Yale lock.

[ShiningInLuz]

A credible cite please for Gerry claiming to have left the keys on the kitchen countertop when they went out.

The fact that the keys were seen on the countertop after the police arrived  in no way proves when they were put there.

IMO

From memory, when Gerry returned to 5A (Dispatches?) he said inside 5A that the key had been left on a countertop or table-top.  Sorry, not interested enough to dig out his actual words or the time in the prog.