I despair sometimes of the rubbish posted on the Jeremy Bamber forum.

[APRIL]

*Cecilia*... smacks bottom!

How did you manage that?

[Myster]

How did you manage that?

I'm used to it, being into BDSM... but with no partner to play with. 

[APRIL]

I'm used to it, being into BDSM... but with no partner to play with. 

Awwww. That's too sad

[Myster]

APRIL!  How do you think the smear or smears on her neck occurred?

[APRIL]

APRIL!  How do you think the smear or smears on her neck occurred?

MYSTER!  The answer which comes obviously to mind is that she put her hand up to her neck automatically, took it away and looked at what was on her hands, then put her hand back. Might this explain the hand print on her nightdress?

[Myster]

MYSTER!  The answer which comes obviously to mind is that she put her hand up to her neck automatically, took it away and looked at what was on her hands, then put her hand back. Might this explain the hand print on her nightdress?

But if that second wound was instantly fatal, then her right hand should still have been in position on or near the rifle trigger without moving anywhere distant. There was also no blood on the fingers of her left hand, so they couldn't have caused the smear(s) either.

[APRIL]

But if that second wound was instantly fatal, then her right hand should still have been in position on or near the rifle trigger without moving anywhere distant. There was also no blood on the fingers of her left hand, so they couldn't have caused the smear(s) either.

Hmm, but I'm not coming from a position of Sheila having the gun in her own hands. She quite obviously, after the first injury, couldn't have held the gun steady with one hand AND pulled the trigger. I don't see her checking the first wound at all if she'd been responsible for it. Might her head have lolled forwards from the first shot and then placed backwards and sideways for the second shot?

[Myster]

Hmm, but I'm not coming from a position of Sheila having the gun in her own hands. She quite obviously, after the first injury, couldn't have held the gun steady with one hand AND pulled the trigger. I don't see her checking the first wound at all if she'd been responsible for it. Might her head have lolled forwards from the first shot and then placed backwards and sideways for the second shot?

There I was, enjoying my own innings, hitting sixes on this thread... and now you've just bowled a googly.

Not sure what you mean by that and how it relates to the smear(s), unless you think the lollling created a mirror image.  Have to sleep on it.

[APRIL]

There I was, enjoying my own innings, hitting sixes on this thread... and now you've just bowled a googly.

Not sure what you mean by that and how it relates to the smear(s), unless you think the lollling created a mirror image.  Have to sleep on it.

Well, I hope your sleep wasn't unduly disturbed! The Smears!! There are finite -reasonable!!- possibilities. If we examine the extremities attached to the torso, the head is by far the heaviest -I once knew the ratio but I've forgotten it- and I'm quite convinced that the effect of the first shot -the physical shock of shattered vertebrae- would have been likely to have knocked it off it's perch, so to speak. It may have only slipped to the side but it's own weight would have forced it forward, possibly in a rolling motion? smearing the blood in the crease. It would have been necessary to lift it from that position to expose the area for the second shot. It seems to me that the obvious lifting point would be the chin -the head being dead weight, this couldn't have been accomplished with one finger- fingers coming into contact with the original wound would cause smears.

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes see what you mean.  Now I feel like a fool torn between the pair of you.  A bit like Mary MacGreggor I suppose!

Now...did SC sit on the edge of the bed for the first lower non-fatal gsw hence the vertical bloodstaining running down her side and then relocate herself on the floor for the second upper fatal gsw hence the horizontal bloodstaining running over her arm?

David are you sure there isn't any blood NB's side of the bed that might pertain to SC?  There's a substance used for bloodstaining experiments.  It's bugging me that I can't recall the name but its something like Ublek!?!

Oobleck. David I know you're there - hiding from me!  You could carry out some experiments with Oobleck - a non-Newtonian fluid like blood.  Amazing...my name is sandwiched amongst the letters making up Newtonian  . 

[Holly Goodhead]

There is a lot of blood on that side of the bed. Apparently it's all June's who walked over there & back again after being shot up to 8 times.

This is surprising, as Sheila was shot twice there & Nevill slept there & was shot 4 times in the bedroom.

Blood tests on carpet samples taken from that side of the room along with the blue socks show the blood originated from June and no one else. 

June was not capable of voluntary movement after either of the gsw's sustained to her head so obviously these were inflicted later in the found location.   

The physical evidence surrounding NB's gsw's by way of bloodstaining, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks doesn't support any gsw's sustained in the master bedroom.  Thread already created along with sources 

[Holly Goodhead]

Thought you didn't like soppy songs sung by swooning women?... and were more into masculine hard rock, Suzi Quatro in leather biker gear, etc.

I probably picked it up from my mum listening to Diddy David Hamilton on Radio 2  Is this part of your BDSM fantasy?

If she did sit on Nevill's side of the bed initially, why wasn't there blood on the sheets or photos taken of any... as far as I know?

According to Prof Knight's trial testimony when someone sustains a gsw there is often a momentary delay before bleeding starts.   The shock causes the blood vessels to contract and then the blood comes out through the aperture.  The delay may only be a few seconds.

[Holly Goodhead]

Just had another think about this and even more convinced that the smear is not mirrored. If it had been, then the circled area would have been far messier than it appears. So imo, definitely caused by a thumb, finger or something else being dragged across the wound once or twice from left to right, then lifted off to create those two dark blobs.

Well as I said according to Prof Knight there's a momentary delay in blood presenting.  Assuming this was the case here, the rifle (with or without silencer) was already out of the way based on soc image.  So much for 'drawback'  &%+((£

Based on the pathological evidence SC was incapable of voluntary movement after the second immediately fatal gsw so would not have been capable of putting her hand up to the second wound.  Maybe after the first gsw she put her finger(s)/hand to the wound and transferred it to the second wound to identify the site.  This seems unlikely as I would expect to see a correpsonding smear elsewhere and I can't see one. 

SC's found location doesn't look right to me.  Why would her head fall to the left of the cabinet?  Surely it would fall straight back and end up wedged between her neck and the cabinet?  I think she was nearer the connecting door and moved by the raid team in their haste to check behind that door.   

The bloodstaining to the left (as I look at the image) looks to me as though it has dried and then cracked as the skin has expanded due to swelling - there's visible bruising to my eye at least.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Try holding a rifle at arms length against ones neck to within half an inch without actually touching the skin, quite a feat.  Now imagine trying to do that while semi conscious, in agony and choking on blood.

Had Sheila shot herself a second time her blood would have been on the tip of the rifle as it was held against an already bleeding neck.  This would of course have resulted in blood smearing to the neck.  Neither of which was evident which speaks for itself.

Clearly her killer had no difficulty positioning the rifle for the second shot as she lay head back after the initial failed shot.

SC's gsw's were described as "loose contact". 

The pathologists at trial, Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight, said it was impossible to say with any certainty the effects of the first gsw ie whether or not she was stunned, felt any pain etc. 

Prof Knight said there's a momentary delay in blood presenting from gsw's as per post above.  Therefore the muzzle of the rifle may have avoided blood from SC's gsw's if it moved immediately after the trigger was pulled. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Desperate people do shoot themselves and sometimes they make such a hash of it that a second bullet is needed to finish the job. In every occasion however the initial shot resulted in a non critical superficial wound which wasn't what occurred with Sheila Caffell.

Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight told the jury it was possible SC shot herself twice.